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17 Bible Verses that Support Predestination (& The Doctrine of Election)

10 July on Bible Studies, Doctrine of Election   Tags: , , , , , ,

Below are 17+ verses that support the Doctrine of Election (sometimes referred to as predestination, but technically not the same). These are verses that don’t need other verses to support them. These verses alone are plain and clear. If we were to do a full exposition of predestination, the list would be even longer.

How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.

– Ps 65:4

The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.

 – Prov 16:4

And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

– Mt 24:31

now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

– Luke 18:7

So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,

And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.

– Acts 15:17-18

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

– Romans 8:28- 30

Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

– Rom 8:33

for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

– Romans 9:11

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

– Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

– Rom 11:2

In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

– Romans 11:5-7

but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

– 1 Cor 2:7

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…

also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

– Ephesians 1:5,11

knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;

– 1 Thes 1:4

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

– 2 Thes 2:13

Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

– Titus 1:1

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

– 1 Peter 1:2

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

– Rev 13:8

Aren’t some of these so obvious??

Some that believe in free will may try to avoid proper hermanuetics when it comes to these verses to support what they believe, or they flat out just reject these verses. But it’s clear. And if all glory is to God and not to ourselves and if we were dead in sin before we were saved, how could we raise ourselves from the dead? To deny predestination you’d have to reject God Omniscience and that He even had a plan when He created the heavens and the earth. Thank God He has predestined us, because it is in our nature to reject God and if He didn’t seal us, we would fall away in a heart beat.

Be thankful for God, His Omniscience, and Grace to save you. Soli Deo Gloria & Sola Gratia!

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  • JD

    These are great verses to support that God saw everything in advance and planned around it to fulfill His perfect will. The key word for those of us who believe in free will is “foreknowledge”. I see God big enough to foresee every thought and intention of every person who would live. In our human intellect we can figure out some reactions through knowledge. We know how the dominoes will fall because of how they are made. God sees everything and works all things together for his purposes. Those who believe in free will and predestination do not limit Him by doing so, rather they exalt His omniscience and omnipotence.

    • Tiffany

      Amen JD. Those who are extreme Calvinist seem to forget the character of God, and that he in fact is not only just, but IS love. For him to literally create billions and billions just to throw them into hell to burn eternally without giving them a choice to repent would make God way more terrifying than Satan.. I mean, why even HAVE a Satan if a loving God is going to do that.. You have the take the bible verses, God’s character and the rest of the Bible into account. Where it actually states that he doesn’t want ANYONE to go to hell. That he desires that EVERYONE repent and all of the places in the Bible that it tells us to repent and believe in Jesus for eternal salvation. It is hard not to notice those with this extreme view that God uses his sovereignty to torture people, that weren’t even given a choice, “just because he can” these people rarely ever exhibit one Christ like attribute. They are insulting, proud, haughty.. bleh.. the exact opposite of Jesus, but scream through their hateful lips they THEY are chosen..smh

      • Al Toid

        You forget though that the Bible plainly says that “no one seeks for God”. God knows how lost we are. We would never seek for Him, never make a choice on our own for Him (because in so doing that would imply some righteousness on our part). God is the one to make the first move to us, He makes the choice, and then he enacts the plan to bring us to salvation. We choose HIm because He first chose us. (the woman at the well is a beautiful picture of this).

        • Natalie Hertach Allen

          Fine…then God approaches “everyone” in the same way. “Everyone” is given the same opportunity, “everyone” is drawn. And “everyone” makes a conscious decision to reject him. No one will have an excuse because even nature makes clear his existence! We can’t just pick and choose certain scriptures to back up what we believe. We have to interpret the Bible as a whole. There are many more scriptures that make it clear Christ died for all. And all is all.

        • Austin Bryan Brewer

          The bible also says in Matthew 6:33 “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness.” To think that we as christens cannot seek God is incorrect my friend because how else would we grow and become stronger in our faith. i agree that god calls all of us for certain things, but I also believe you have to be willing to answer. Yes, the woman at the well is a good example but I believe your only looking at it from one side. If you’ll remember, that same woman came to the well in search for water. Not only did she get that water, she was given living water in which she would never thirst again. The key point here is that it was offered to her. Jesus never made her take his salvation, or water in this instance, but instead gave her the option to make that decision. We all have a decsion when it comes to our salvation and serving Christ, my prayer is that all can make the right choice before it is everlasting too late.

          • Al Toid

            Christ went thru Samaria to meet this woman at the exact time He needed to and the exact time of her salvation. Jews never walked thru Samaria at because Samaritans were offensive, being half-Jew/half Gentile. He went to her and told her “everything she had done”. He released her, He opened her eyes so the choice could be made. A dead person will never ever choose God. Like wise, the apostle Paul was on his way to kill Christians when suddenly a choice was made for him. Paul didn’t exercise his free will to choose God. He was chosen. The same with the 12 disciples. Christ said “follow me”…and they did. The same with Jonah, and Moses, and Abraham, and scores of others. God allows us to make choices of course and that is all within the realm of his sovereignty but when it comes to salvation the choice will be irresistible.

          • JD

            Great scriptures. Many have answered dramatic calls from God and it is beautiful. I believe that according to God’s foreknowledge, He knew when and where they would be ready to do so. He did not force them to be saved.

            When Jesus told the rich man to sell his belongings, give the money to the poor and come and follow Him, the rich man walked away. According to your reasoning method, God’s calling was resistible in this situation. When Jesus preached and healed in several large cities he later went back and rebuked them because they did not repent after hearing and seeing Him. According to your reasoning method, He kept them from repenting in the first place and then He scolded them for not doing it.

          • Al Toid

            Correct, He knew when and where they would be ready to answer the call….because He orchestrated it all. He did the choosing and made our choice irresistible. His sovereignty was not violated and neither was our free will.

          • JD

            Well we are close but you pollute the comment by saying He made our choice irresistible. I commend your respect and Honor for the power of God’s amazing grace. How can we neglect such a great salvation, yet many do unfortunately.

            I could agree that in His omniscience and foresight that He knows who will be open and ready to receive so when He approaches them His grace is irresistible in that moment. All their defenses collapse. On the other hand there are just as many examples of those He spoke to and approached who resisted and walked away.

            The only way I could ever see how your doctrine of irresistible grace could be true is if every man will be saved in the end and Hell will be emptied. Unfortunately the scriptures don’t teach that. It God’s grace and calling are irresistible then every man would be saved because He wills that every man be saved.

          • Al Toid

            Sorry let me clarify….the choice is irresistible to His chosen ones. 🙂 The fact is though that none of us are ever open or ready to receive Him because as you recall we are ALL dead. Dead people cannot do anything….let alone make the one reasonable choice that will save their eternal souls. God does, through His sovereignty and power lead those He has chosen to a saving faith….and that faith is only given AFTER regeneration, not before. We, as people, are free, yes, but God is more free.

          • theGiantMidget 2000

            If I understand you correctly, you are trying to mesh both points of view (Calvinism and Arminianism) which is possible but you are doing so over-simplistically and you have therefore cut corners and messed a bunch of stuff up. But I’m done here 🙂
            God bless you gentlemen.

          • Al Toid

            God bless you too. (love having this discussion in a civil manner, which is sorely lacking out there in the big world, someday we will understand it all……or at the very least, understand it a lil’ bit better) 🙂

          • Nas

            My father died at 63 from cirrhosis of the liver. My mother is alive and well and in relatively good health at 88. My father’s choice of indulgence caused his early demise. Satan loves it when God is held responsible for the bad choices we make.

          • Logic

            Nobody Is holding God responsible. The scripture is clear on this. We make our bad choices. Whatever your arguement is here it’s not Biblical. It’s emotionalism. You are trading the truth for a feeling. Peace be with you brother.

          • JD

            Your points that none seek after God and that all are dead in their sins and trespasses are true. That is the whole purpose Jesus came. Since none sought after God, He sought after all. Since none could produce Life and righteousness, He produced Life and righteousness for all.

            The idea that since we are dead and none seek after God means that none can accept His seeking after them is erroneous. The idea that God does not seek after all men is all the more erroneous. All sins have been paid for and all men have been offered reconciliation through the death of Jesus Christ. When we could not come to Him, He came to us. We were all bound in our disobedience so that He might offer mercy to us all. Not everyone will accept His mercy, reconciliation or atonement. If they do not then how can they be saved?

            God is not controlling our every action. We make decisions constantly of our own free will. The fact that any of us can receive or reject a gift of any kind does not make us righteous in any way. It simply means we have a choice and a free will to decide. A person does not have to be righteous or to produce faith to accept God’s gift of salvation. They simply have to accept it! God does the rest! The idea that they cannot accept it because of their depravity is not biblical. The idea that they cannot produce righteousness or faith because of their depravity is biblical. There is a big difference. I believe the faith of the Son of God is part of the free gift being offered to us. It is us to us to receive that faith or not.

            Can a depraved sinner find a treasure in a field, recognize it is more valuable than anything he has and be willing to give up everything for that treasure? Of course he can. Even if he does so at first because he is covetous and greedy, lol. Can a depraved sinner come to his senses and realize their is fresh bread in his father’s house while he can’t even eat what the pigs are eating? Of course he can. What man does not respond to hunger and common sense? Of course many people will reject and not recognize the value of what is being offered to them. That is why we need to preach the value of it loud and clear so that they can reason within themselves and count the cost. They don’t need to be born again to come to a decision. They don’t need to be “chosen” to come to a decision. The fact is that God knows who will decide to accept His free gift and according to that knowledge they are chosen and predestined. That is why the bible says we are chosen according to His foreknowledge. Foreknowledge means knowing what will take place before it takes place.

          • Al Toid

            Well, it is not erroneous to state no one seeks after God if the Bible says so. Romans 3:10-11 makes it plain “As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;11 there is no one who understands;there is no one who seeks God.” Yes, we have choices to make, yes we are free…..BUT God is more free. If you are chosen….then you will be saved. God works through our lives and our choices to bring us to the irresistible.

            And yes God has foreknowledge….He knows who will accept His gift because He has chosen them. (it is a free gift….lest any man should boast). How could a DEAD sinner make any choice, let alone the one choice that would save (or in his case, resurrect) his life? If he could do that then he could indeed boast about it, yes?

          • JD

            I find it interesting that this is not the first time one of you guys failed to understand very clear writing. I wrote “Your points that none seek after God and that all are dead in their sins and trespasses are true.”

            Then you wrote back that it is not erroneous that none seek after God??? I did not say that it was. I wrote the opposite. How did you miss it? Could it be you are doing the exact same thing with God’s Word?

            What you are doing is demonstrating that you are not seeing what is written clearly because of your predetermined mindset while reading it. That is the main problem with reformist. None of you can see what the Bible says very plainly because you approach it with a predetermined mindset. You have taken a few scriptures that sound like they teach what you believe, even though they do not, out of context and you approach the rest of the Bible with your false doctrines. You see things that are not there and don’t see the things that are. You demonstrate that with the way you respond to what I wrote.

          • Al Toid

            My apologies for misunderstanding your point…..but it was a misunderstanding, not a lack of understanding what God has clearly revealed. God proves his sovereignty daily by His choice and the choices we make. Take a look at all the biblical examples laid out for you. Jonah is a prime example….God chose Jonah for a specific task. Jonah chose another way….and in the end, guess where Jonah ended up. God’s choice and Jonah’s choice…..both played out. Jonah was free…..God was more free. Take a look at Paul on his way to kill more Christains and he had a wee encounter with God. Take a look at Moses, and Joseph and Abraham. People living their lives, making choices, being “free” but in the end God gets his way and His will. I admit it is a difficult thing to grasp. I mean being human we’d like to think we control our destiny but you would not have called to God unless He had been calling to you first. He chose you first…..so that you could chose Him….not the other way around (lest you become boastful).

          • JD

            The reason so many are duped by the things you are believing is because they have some truth to them. The problem is that a half truth equals a whole lie. Of course we cannot get saved without God drawing us to Him. Show me the scripture where it says that God draws some and not others? It does not exist because it is not true.

            John 12:32 (KJV)
            32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

            I know you are going to say that all does not mean all. You can save it. God always tells the truth.

          • Al Toid

            Correct and your statements are a prime example of that. To use John 12:32 as a proof text is foolhardy. To believe that Jesus is saying he will draw “ALL MEN” – to include everyone of all time or even those who have lived since Jesus was lifted up – is to believe that a man can be savinigly drawn to Christ without them ever hearing of Christ! There is no such thing as salvation outside of the proclamation of the gospel. Men cannot improve upon their conscience and natural revelation in such a way as to be saved. God does not “draw” men to Christ through natural revelation and conscience. The Bible says those things stand only to condemn men. Men are drawn to Christ by the Spirit of God using the word of God. All things in context my friend. You need to look at scripture in the light of the rest of scripture.

          • JD

            “You need to look at scripture in the light of the rest of scripture.” Lollllllll. That statement from a reformist who twists a few scriptures in order to discount thousands. You answer is at least good for comical relief.

            Jesus draws ALL men with no respect of persons, just as He said He would. His sacrifice is for every man, woman and child just like every other scripture about it says. Your argument to discount the word “ALL” since all have not heard the Gospel is an extremely weak argument. In light of other scriptures “all” means the cross applies to everyone and He leaves no one out.

            Yes, let’s always look at scripture in light of the rest of scripture, but let’s actually do that and not just say it to sound like we do it.

            Only someone with no reading comprehension skills at all or someone deceived and in darkness could deny that Jesus died for ALL!

            1 John 2:2 (KJV)
            2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, BUT ALSO for the sins of the whole world.

            2 Corinthians 5:15 (KJV)
            15 And that he died for ALL, that they which live SHOULD not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

            Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
            18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

            1 Timothy 2:3-6 (NKJV)
            3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

            2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)
            9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

          • musefortune

            The belief that God picks and chooses springs from the desire of man to be considered more important or more special than others. Plain and simple. The very notion that we “know” HOW God picks and chooses is arrogant and man-centered!

          • JD

            Your argument that no one can be saved through general revelation is heavily debated by many theologians. Romans chapter one tells us that God makes himself known through what He has made and men choose to reject Him even through general revelation. Therefore men are without excuse. It would not say they will not have an excuse if they could not come to know God through general revelation. No excuse means they did have an opportunity to be saved and they did not take it. That is the plain meaning of the scriptures without any theological twist on it from some dark human reasoning cult.

            You say a person must receive Jesus to be saved. I believe that is accurate but after 23 years of ministry all over the world I have seen things that shaped the way I see that differently than I did before. Jesus will save people any way He chooses to whether you approve of it or not.

            There was a man in a tribe in the middle of the jungle among cannibals who had never seen civilization. He had dreams and saw “God” who told him to repent of his evil and love God and others. He dreamed that God loved everyone and wanted to help all of them. He preached to his peers to no avail. They mocked him and kept on in their wickedness. Years later a missionary found them and risk his life and moved in with them until he could learn their language enough to tell them the Gospel. As he told them about Jesus they all realized that the man who had the dreams had been telling the truth! It was an amazing confirmation to them that God would send someone from very far away to show them the dreams were real. Many repented and received Christ.

            In that case there was a man who knew nothing about Jesus having dreams and asking God for forgiveness and believing in what God revealed to him. A religious, ignorant, legalistic pharisee would say that there is no way that man could be saved because he did not know the name of Jesus or the full Gospel message. I would say that Jesus already paid for every man’s sins and that man yielding to what God showed him and recognizing his need for God would be enough to save him. While we were the enemies of God we were reconciled to Him through the death of Jesus how much more shall we be saved by His Life!

            If Jesus would go and preach the glorious gospel to all those who died in Noah’s flood then He would certainly share the full gospel with such a man when he came out of His body. My hard religious doctrines used to have no place for such things. I thank God He has changed my heart and I see Him and His love bigger than ever before. I know he blood of Jesus has taken away all the sins of the world, not just the elects, and I believe God can save people through general revelation or any other means He chooses to. The thief on the cross new very little, he was never baptized and yet he was saved just by recognizing he deserved his punishment and that the Lord was righteous and Holy and had a Kingdom!

          • Al Toid

            JD I think there is probably more that we agree on than disagree on. I do believe God can save anyone using any method He chooses. Difficult though to formulate arguments and thoughts thru the comment section of a blog post. I’m quite convinced I’ll see you in Heaven and there the debate will be settled……though I am sure all our earthly debates will be but a distant faded memory and not really matter much at all. 🙂

          • Logic

            The topic is for whom did Christ die. This is very very clear in scripture with definite verses. What I mean by definite verses: verses that can only be interpreted one way because that’s how clear they are.

            Matthew 1:21 -21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

            In Matthew 1:21 We see that he WILL save his people from their sins. Definite. So who are His people?

            John 10:15 (KJV)- 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

            Jesus Lays down his life for his sheep. Clear verse and everyone arrives at the same conclusion on this verse. He laid down his life for his sheep. Not every single individual. That’s would be called universal atonement. With universal atonement you would have to accept universal salvation. Which means nobody goes to hell. We also know that is false. If you don’t accept universal salvation then you are in contradiction to the Gospel because you leave Christ’s works in vain and contradict what he taught. He taught he WILL indeed save his people.

            Once again who was Christ a ransom for?

            Rev :9 -9 And they sang a new song, saying,
            “Worthy are you to take the scroll
            and to open its seals,
            for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

            He ransomed “people” Not every single individual who ever lived. That is a direct contradiction on these very clear teachings. Verses I’ve seen you use have nothing to do or even teach for whom Christ died. These verses do and are very very clear.

            The topic on for whom did Christ die are clear. He died for His sheep. There is no way around the truth of this text. The bible also clearly tells us who His sheep are.

          • JD

            So you found a few verses that say Jesus died for His sheep. Everyone believes that. Congratulations you earn a gold start for stating the obvious. What you did not find is a scripture that says Jesus only died for His sheep. No, instead you applied distorted human “logic” that comes from the philosophies of men and by doing so discounted many “definite verses: verse that can only be interpreted one way because that is how clear they are.”

            There is no scripture in the Bible that even hints that Jesus did not die for all mankind. To the contrary there are definitive verses that say that He did such as Romans 5:18 “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.”

            The reason you accept some verses and twist others is because you believe that, “With universal atonement you would have to accept universal salvation.” Again you are using faulty human logic to conclude something the Bible does not teach. You are using reformist “logic” that is unbiblical and based on fallible human reasoning. The vast majority of Christians accept universal atonement and have no problem logically understanding that it does not mean universal salvation. The atonement is universal but will only save those who receive it. It is offered to all men but not all will receive it.

            Your faulty logic keeps you from believing that Satan could author anything such as lies, etc. Your faulty logic keeps you from believing that God had to become a man to defeat the one who held the power or death. In your faulty logic God is the one who has always held the power of death because He is sovereign.

          • Logic

            I’m not reading all this lol….. I found a definite verse that answer for whom Christ died. Read this verse then tell me for whom Christ laid down his life, I want to hear you say it.

            John 10:15King James Version (KJV)

            15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

          • JD

            Okay I will tell you, He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.

            So your gold star answer that He died for the sheep is correct. Congratulations! You are actually smart enough to believe one verse of the Bible. You are making progress. On the other hand, He did not just die for the sheep, He died for the sins of the whole world.

          • Logic

            Once again an SBC Traditionalist who fails to interact what a surprise. I know your argument better than you do lol…. Once again. Who does it say Christ laid his life down for in John 10:15? Who are his sheep?

          • Logic

            I understand the verse your saying very well. That says nothing about whom he laid his life down for. I also feel you failed to read the giant comment above on your false unlimited atonement view. Another thing that doesn’t surprise me. Is there anyone on these comments who hold to your view that actually can interact and answer questions they are asked? I’m waiting for a ‘serious’ discussion.

          • Logic

            Show me one verse that says “I lay down my life for not only my sheep for for every single individual who ever lived or shall live.” that’s including Hitler and child molester btw. You can’t do it this is rhetorical I just want you to see how silly you sound.

          • JD

            That is exactly what propitiation means. It means He atoned not only for our sins but also the sins of the whole world, including Hitler and every child molester.

            Your reveal your misguided pride and self righteousness by your answer. You are not even a good reformist. Your mention of Hitler and child molesters reveals your deceived idea that some people are worse than others and God would not save them.

            You want to hear me say something that is silly to you? Okay here goes, Jesus died for Hitler, child molesters, murderers, rapists and even self righteous deceived people like yourself.

          • Logic

            You are laughable. Going against what Jesus actually spoke himself and taking the letter 1 John 2:2 out of context. Behind me Satan your lies will not prevail. You are focusing on the things of man and not what Christ himself told us.

          • JD

            Where did Jesus say he only died for the sheep? He says He died for His sheep. I believe that. I am glad you do also.

            His Word also says that He died for His enemies. Does that mean He did not die for His friends? According to your “logic” if the Bible says He died for some group of people that means He did not die for any others. That is retarded.

            His word definitively says that He died for all mankind.

            1 John 2:2 (KJV)
            2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, BUT ALSO for the sins of the whole world.

            2 Corinthians 5:15 (KJV)
            15 And that he died for ALL, that they which live SHOULD not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

            Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
            18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

          • Logic

            Once again this is a terrible argument. I now your argument better than you do. He says in RED LETTERS specifically. John 10:15

            John 10:15King James Version (KJV)

            15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

            1John 2:2 is a letter. It has a purpose. It’s not teaching anywhere in that whom he laid his life down for. Did you miss the giant comment above that shows your belief and provides a better argument for your belief then you do? I can post it again if you like. If your going to hold to this perversion you can at least use the better argument I posted.

          • Logic

            Can you post the verse that Jesus himself is saying he died for his enemies? Also his sheep are within the whole world from every tribe tongue and nation. Just like the Bible tells us. Once again failing to interact. Still waiting on the verse that Jesus said “I laid down my life for my enemies.”

          • JD

            So you are saying that you do not believe the epistles are the God breathed Word from God? If it is not in RED you do not believe it?

            Romans 5:10
            10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, [then how] much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!

          • Logic

            Wow this is what you meant by enemies. This is obvious. I thought you were talking about Satanists, Pharisee, Antichrists, etc. You are starting to tired me. Obviously those whom were given to Christ and are his sheep were enemies/sinners. Yet he shows mercy to ‘US'(not every single individual) and shows justice to others. Just the fact that this is what you were talking about when you said enemies baffles me. Yes all Scripture is God breathed, it was written while people were carried along by the Holy Spirit. At the same time Jesus himself Spoke to make things clear and that is in RED. He himself Makes it Clear whom he died for John 10:15King James Version (KJV)

            15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

            (and who these sheep are )

            John 6:37King James Version (KJV)

            37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

            Jesus makes this very clear. So when you are reading the new testament you can say Jesus himself told us whom he laid his life down for. So if you feel it contradicts 1 John 2:2 it doesn’t it just means you are interpreting 1 John 2:2wrong.

            Lol I still can’t stop laughing that what you meant when you said enemies was Romans 5:10 jajajaj

          • JD

            Well I am glad you are so tickled. My teenagers do the same thing. Laughter is good for you sometimes. I hope between your homework and bedtime you can have a good laugh or two.

          • Logic

            It’s funny how you are using Letters to try and prove a point versus the Canonical Gospels. Might want to try using the Canonical Gospels and what Jesus actually said which is in RED LETTERS. Also I agree 100 percent with your versus above. Those are not contradictory to my belief. You on the other hand have a contradictory message. There is not one verse that doesn’t work in harmony and without contradiction with my Biblical view.

          • JD

            Accept for all the ones that say Jesus died for everyone. Those you explain away with some wild ideas of outlines and some other crazy gibberish.

            You say Adam’s sin brought judgment on all mankind but Jesus act of righteousness did not bring the free gift to all mankind. You stand against the Word of God.

            You can say they all work in harmony but what you mean is that you can twist the scriptures in your own head until they make sense to you.

          • Logic

            1) The call of the gospel is universal in
            the sense that anybody that hears it and believes in it will be saved.
            2) Because everyone is dead in trespasses and sin, no one will believe
            the gospel and respond in faith unless God first makes those who are
            dead in their trespasses and sins alive (Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that “whosoever believes” will have eternal life and then explains why some believe and some don’t.

            With your reasoning you say Man has the ability to choose God. The Bible teaches otherwise.

          • Logic

            Jesus died for the sheep. Not every single person the bible is clear. The Bible is clear that those whom he died for He saved. His work was not in vain period.

          • Logic

            You are assuming universalism. Christ did not die for every single person and no verse backs that up. Not one.

          • JD

            Okay explain the verse then. You admit Adams sin brought judgment on all men but you are saying that Jesus act of righteousness did not bring the gift of Life to all men?

          • Logic

            Simple stuff bud. Yes He brought the gift of life to All. Whether Jew/Gentile/Black/White/Red/Green no matter the tribe/nation or tongue. If you say every single individual then you are saying John 10:15 is saying the sheep Jesus spoke of is every single individual and that is not only a Huge contradiction but in direct opposition of what Jesus taught. His sheep hear his voice and follow him, Those whom the Father gives him will come to him. If John 10:15 Is saying he laid down his life for the sheep(every single individual) Then we also know by other verses they would come to him. This is not the case not even close.

            Revelation 5:9King James Version (KJV)

            9 And
            they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to
            open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God
            by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

          • JD

            So let me clarify. You have said that the first part of this verse actually means every single person but the second part does not? Interesting indeed.

            Romans 5:18 (KJV)
            18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

          • Logic

            Before I answer I’ll ask you this simple question buddy that even you can answer. Do verses in the Bible exist that use the words world/all/whole world that do not mean every single individual?

          • Logic

            I actually don’t care to wait on you admit it. I’ll go ahead and answer this. Once again you bring a failed argument. You are good at that bud. I believe Romans 15:12 Is speaking of every single person because it is…. We know for a fact Romans 5:18 isn’t because the following verse tells us who ALL MEN are

            18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to
            condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came
            upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s
            disobedience MANY were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall MANY be made righteous.

            It clearly defines itself. Ever heard the term the verses speak for themselves? Funny how you didn’t include verse 19… deceptive much? It clearly states MANY- NOT every single individual. You are one comical dude.

            You done yet? You will not win this because the Scriptures cannot be broken.

          • JD

            Okay so now you are changing your interpretation of verse 18 and you no longer believe that Adam’s offense brought judgment upon ALL mankind?

            Yes I can see how verse 19 must mean that verse 18 was simply misstated. Adam’s offense effected many people but not all correct? Which ones did it not effect? I am curious of this new revelation.

            I don’t have to win anything by the way because I am not in competition. The Word speaks for itself and always will. I am only taking my time to debate with someone as arrogant as you are so people can see the word for themselves. Certainly there must be differences among us so that God can show who He approves of.

          • Logic

            I didn’t change anything I said, you are the one misquoting me. This is what I said BIG BOY
            “When Adam brought sin into the world. It came upon every single person.
            Sometimes when the Bible says all It means all, Sometimes when it says
            all it is speaking of Jew/Gentile or all of the Jewish nation. This is a
            fact. Once again you arguments are terrible.”

            I was referring to Romans 5:12 Not once did I ever saying I was talking or referring to verse 18 You are putting words in my mouth Just like you do for John and Paul no surprise there. I believe exactly what Romans 5:12 Says. I also believe exactly What Romans 5:18-19 Says because unlike you big boy I don’t put words in Paul’s mouth. Just in-case you missed it here is Romans 5:18-19 again and 19 tells us who 18 is referring to.

            18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to
            condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came
            upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s
            disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall
            many be made righteous.

            So JD these verses go together big boy. So you are saying Paul is wrong in verse 19 where he defines it in-case there was any confusion by saying many?

            Also more from Paul what about this verse buddy? Does this mean every single individual?

            Ro 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that
            your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world

            Does this also mean every single individual?

            Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

            It’s rhetorical I already now the answer just want to hear you say it 🙂

          • JD

            It is extremely difficult to even acknowledge you. Your communication is filled with so many juvenile mannerisms that I have to greatly lower myself to answer. I am not answering for you at all. I have no desire to cast my pearls before swine or perhaps just an arrogant kid who has no manners at all.

            I will address one more verse for those who read the comments. You agreed that Paul meant ALL mankind when he said in Romans 5:18 “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;” Then I pointed out the next part of the verse shows the free gift also came upon All mankind when it said “…EVEN SO by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”

            Realizing you had backed yourself into a corner that you could not get out of you attempted to change your interpretation of verse 18 by using verse 19 to define it.

            Romans 5:19 (KJV) “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

            So let’s break down the two verses. The first verse says that one man’s obedience brought the gift to ALL men, which means that Jesus paid for every man’s sins and offers every man salvation if they will believe in Him and receive it. The second verse shows that as a result of the free gift being given to all men many will be made righteous. I believe both verses wholeheartedly. There is no need to twist them or the attempt to change either one as you are doing. The free gift has been given to ALL men and those who receive it will be made righteous. Not all will receive the free gift but many will. Praise God for His wonderful and simple Word.

          • Logic

            Also since you have no idea What Romans 5:18-19 are about which is strange because It’s in the study bible. I’ll even add here.

            5:18, 19
            Paul returns to the main thrust of his analogy, namely that there is a
            parallel between Adam and Christ in that condemnation and justification
            are the direct fruits of their actions. On the basis of the actions of
            “one,” “many” are constituted either sinners or righteous. Adam is the
            representative head as well as the physical root of all, and all sinned
            and fell when he sinned. In contrast, “by the one man’s obedience” those
            whom Christ represents are “made righteous” in Him (see “The Humble
            Obedience of Christ” at John 5:19).
            Christ is their representative Head, as well as the spiritual root of
            the new humanity, for through His resurrection they are given new birth
            and a living hope (1 Pet. 1:3; Eph. 2:1–7).

            Keep up JD. Also did you get my comment about musefortune. You need to dodge the bullet bro. Big trouble there.

          • JD

            How old are you? Why won’t you answer that question? I simply don’t have any more time for a kid playing games on the internet thinking he or is accomplishing something with his ridiculous assertions. I think the display of your ignorance is sufficient and you don’t need to post twelve times to answer this one post. Have a good life and I hope you grow up one day.

          • Logic

            Did you miss the part under the comments, if you select newest on the website. I put your belief down. It is explained there better than you explain it. It also provides a way better argument for your side than you do. I know the best of the arguments your side has and they fail because they are not truth. Well I’m bored time to move on to people who need help. You know, Roman Catholics, Mormons, JW’s Moslims. Maybe instead of trying to prove yourself right and put everyone else down in these comments you can do what you are commanded to do and go help our brothers and sisters…O wait with your reasoning you wouldn’t last a second on the front lines in person with textual criticism and cross examination.

          • JD

            Great advice. I hope you grow up and take it yourself. Your fruit is so rotten I can smell its stench through my laptop. You have displayed arrogance, extreme ignorance, the worst hermeneutics I have ever seen in 25 years of ministry, hypersensitivity and self righteousness to name a few. For those reading these comments your attitude and behavior here are typical of a reformist and that is why it is abundantly clear that your entire cult is in deep error. You shall know them by their fruit.

          • JD

            I asked you this question earlier: “When the Bible says that judgment came upon ALL men does that mean some mysterious or specific group of people out of mankind or does it actually mean ALL mankind?”

            Here is your answer: “When Adam brought sin into the world. It came upon every single person. Sometimes when the Bible says all It means all,”

            Now you are saying that you were referring to verse 12 but verse 12 does not say judgment came upon all men verse 18 does. So I guess you got confused or now you are changing your tune since to admit the first part of verse 18 means ALL would be to admit the second part of verse 18 means ALL.

            As for verse 19 it does not change or define verse 18, it says something different. If you put both parts together referring to the work of Jesus you get:

            Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
            “…even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life… so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

            The free gift came to all men. That gift is the offer of salvation and forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. In order for a person to become righteous they have to receive that offer. So both scriptures make perfect sense and do not change each other in any way. EVERY PERSON has been offered the free gift and thankfully many will become righteous as a result!

          • Logic

            For 1 how is Sin not Judgement. For 2 I define what I mean not you. Seems you have that issue with Biblical authors as well. For 2 you didn’t post Romans 18-19 I’ll post it again since you are either blind or deceiving

            18 Therefore
            as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
            even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto
            justification of life.
            19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous..

            Also where are the verses backing ‘Your opinion?’ It is clearly speaking of many people here. The context and message he is trying to relay is not Christ died for every single individual that would be in direct opposition of what Christ himself said in John 5:10. As ween know the sheep are not every-single individual. Because that would be in direct opposition of the following verses.

            This is the point Paul is making in verse 18-19 with verses to back it up. Not just opinions and assumptions. Which take it out of context in his letter to the Romans.

            5:18, 19
            Paul returns to the main thrust of his analogy, namely that there is a
            parallel between Adam and Christ in that condemnation and justification
            are the direct fruits of their actions. On the basis of the actions of
            “one,” “many” are constituted either sinners or righteous. Adam is the
            representative head as well as the physical root of all, and all sinned
            and fell when he sinned. In contrast, “by the one man’s obedience” those
            whom Christ represents are “made righteous” in Him (see “The Humble
            Obedience of Christ” at John 5:19).
            Christ is their representative Head, as well as the spiritual root of
            the new humanity, for through His resurrection they are given new birth
            and a living hope (1 Pet. 1:3; Eph. 2:1–7).

            See how verses are added in the comment above? See how scripture is used to help determine things. Interesting huh big boy? So how’s that view? up on your high horse lol?

          • Logic

            I recommend you check out the site you are commenting on. Go to newest and read the newest posts. Might help you bud.

          • Logic

            If you keep this going JD. I’m going to list 30 verses that contradict your view. You will have to go through each of them only using the Bible and the wording in the Bible and without adding to the verse in any way shape or form and show the whole audience why these don’t contradict and how they fit. I recommend you either find the Truth in these comments or move your business elsewhere. The verses you ‘THINK’ and I stress deeply ‘THINK’ contradict my view do not. I reject no verse. I skip over no verse. The view I hold to works in harmony 100 percent. The Gospel beautifully weaves together as a whole.

          • Logic

            Actually I’m not letting you get away that easy let’s do this. A series of simple questions to help understand what you believe and if its Biblical.

            So JD. You are affirming without a doubt the Romans 5:18 is affirming Jesus died for every single person that had ever lived and ever will live?

            In John 10:15- You are saying the sheep Jesus is referring to that he laid down his life for. Are those whom God foreknew would choose him?

            So if you say yes to these to questions. The next question is. Give me any Bible verse at all that affirms God makes choices in light of what someone might do after they are born? You cannot because the Bible never has ever taught that. That is a false doctrine and not Biblical. If ever there was a time to let us know it would have been here with the Apostle Paul.

            Romans 9:11King James Version (KJV)

            11 (For
            the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
            that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works,
            but of him that calleth;)

            This verse tells us it upholds election. Not of works but of him that calleth. Not only does the Bible NOT teach your false doctrine of foreknowledge it also tells us nothing is based on merit of our own. Wouldn’t you say with your view their is merit?

            I’ll be waiting for your response of a Bible verse. Just 1 that backs up and affirms your false man made doctrine of foreknowledge. I’ll be waiting forever because it doesn’t exist.

            Let’s move on to the next definite contradiction of your view.

            John 3:16 – You believe this affirms that anyone has the ability to come to Christ right? That Whoever Shall even that it doesn’t actually say SHALL that’s another addition.

            So now you are going to have to explain why Christ taught the opposite in the same book of John.

            John 6:65King James Version (KJV)

            65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

            Now let’s apply proper logic— No man(universal negative) Can(has the ability)
            Just like if I was to say no man can run 30 miles an hour, no man has the ability.

            to come unto me, except it were given unto him of the Father.

            So explain please for the audience why your view of John 3:16 and man’s ability to choose does not contradict John 6:65? The thing is you have to explain this with the Bible not based on opinions or personal feeling. See when you start running into contradictions that only means one thing. Obviously there is a verse you took out of context. If the Bible message is not in harmony and without contradiction as a whole you did something wrong.

            I’ll be waiting, and when or if you even reply. I’ll be there ready with the Truth of the Bible and verses in hand to refute your additions, traditions and false doctrines.

          • JD

            Your incessant badgering, nervous banter, circular reasoning, refusal to actually read and respond to anything I write, constant mutilation of God’s Word, misguided arrogance, immature mannerisms and lack of reading comprehension has made this conversation absolutely unbearable. Good bye. If your goal was to make me quit by being as offensive, proud and as ignorant as humanly possible you have won. Congratulations.

          • Logic

            lol I figured that would be your response. I’m going to pick this one apart also. Incessant badgering? Did you not just do this in your comment? Nervous banter? I was nervous? I didn’t realize you could read signs of nervousness in a comment/reply. Circular reasoning? What’s circular? I gave you a chance to explain your view in dept with cross examination. You know just as well as me that’s why you replied with this bc you cannot do so 🙂 If I mutilated God’s word why are you the one running away from answering what I asked you? Misguided arrogance? Good one I officially have no doubt you and musefortune are meant for each other. Immature mannerisms, oh no not that someone needs a safe-space again. Lack of reading comprehension? More like your lack of admitting your wrong and failing to interact like every other SBC Traditionalist. I guess once your in that deep, with pride it’s too late to turn around huh JD? No My point was to prove you can’t stay consistent and your view is not Biblical it’s a contradiction which you know in your heart of hearts to be true because you can’t explain or answer the challenge I gave you, just like I said within that challenge.

            P.S . Goodbye big boy, I don’t like when people with false doctrines come and attack my fellow reformed peeps and try to deceive them. It’s no different than if a Mormon, Catholic, JW, Or Moslims came onto this site and said. “hey guys your wrong.”

            P.S.S. I will however be praying that God does lead you to the Truth or allow you to see that even though you spent your life with a tradition the Bible does not affirm. It’s not to late to be corrected and start teaching what the Bible actually says.

            Take care JD.

          • JD

            Incessant badgering: Rapid fire multiple responses without even reading what I wrote, repeating the same nonsense over and over and over again.

            Nervous banter: your quick multiple responses show no peace, respect or calmness. When you are backed into a corner by clear explanation of the Word you start copying and pasting super long things from the internet. You try to excuse why you changed your mind with multiple excuses, etc. You also frantically search for something to defend yourself when your false doctrines are confronted with clear and precise scriptures. Your barrage of comments is impossible to keep up with. I actually felt guilty for clogging up this page to make it impossible for anyone to actually read or learn anything. You started out this whole thing by your frequent “lollll” saying, “I am not going to read ALL that,” concerning three very short paragraphs I wrote. Then you proceed to write, copy and paste hundreds of sentences in rapid fire succession. Your clear goal is not to understand or share God’s Word it is to not be proven wrong or accept anything can be different than the nonsense you make up in your own head no matter how clearly it is spelled out. That my friend in nervous banter at it best.

            Circular reasoning: always coming back to the same thing that does not even support your argument. “RED LETTERS, RED LETTERS, JESUS SAID, JESUS SAID, RED LETTERS, RED LETTERS.” With all that nonsense the one scripture you keep circling back to does not even insinuate Jesus did not die for all mankind. He simply says that He laid His life down for His sheep. You read it like this, “I only lay my life down for my sheep and no one else.” You read it like that because you are lacking in reading comprehension and common sense and because you have been deceived by a cult. Your refuse to answer simple and basic questions or focus on what any verse actually says. You just circle back around over and over again. Then you accuse me of being the one who won’t answer your questions. You never give a question more than a few seconds before you post something else and circle back around. You simply cannot focus on any particular verse because none of them say what you are saying. Anytime you are confronted with your contradictions you go right back to the first nonsense you spoke in the beginning.

            Mutilating God’s Word: You deny scriptures plain meaning and then add meanings that are not there and you do it over and over again. Your main scripture you keep going to does not say that Jesus did not die for the whole world. The scriptures I go to plainly say He did. Any neutral English teacher could point out your mutilation. You yourself know you are mutilating it, you just call it “interpreting it properly”. I have talked with a lot of people over the years and you are the worst at hermeneutics of anyone I have ever spoke with. I don’t say that lightly. I have dealt with some characters over the years but in mutilating the Word you take first prize. Yes, that includes Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are more reasonable and open to believe what the Bible actually says than you are. Your cult is much more damaging to God’s actual character than theirs is. It would do you good to take a course in hermeneutics in the future and then a class in manners and respect. Then perhaps we can agree to disagree and discuss doctrines in a reasonable manner.

            Misguided arrogance: You are constantly condescending and presenting yourself as an expert of truth because you feel like you are always right. You have no reason to be so confident, proud and arrogant. You have no experience, no real Biblical education, no credentials, etc. You are not only in great error but you are also very ignorant of basic foundational doctrines that every “Christian” believes. You actually mocked the Word by saying, “Did Jesus die for Hitler or a child molester?” You revealed your self-righteousness in such a statement and your lack of belief in the total depravity of every person. Your statement made it clear that you believe some people are more savable than others, thus violating your own false doctrine that God sees nothing in man in His choosing.

            Immature mannerisms: well you left that one out because you know it is true. I don’t think I need to explain that one.

            If any of your “peeps” has more maturity than you and would like me to explain any scripture in the Bible without dealing with the nonsense you constantly spew then I will gladly do so.I have had some great conversations here and elsewhere with others.

            You can leave me out of your “prayers.” By your own belief system in how you define God’s sovereignty, your god is the father of lies and the one who kills, steals and destroys. I prefer not to have that god in my life and I definitely don’t want his direction while I read the Word. He is the god of this world but he is not my God.

          • Logic

            So you can come back and interact and pick apart topics that are not Biblical. Yet you still have failed to interact on the Biblical challenge I’ve given you? Interesting. Oh Just looking at this comment proves you are incessantly badgering my friend. Hypocrite much? You are the one who started all this name calling above and did the same thing you accused me of doing. Interesting.

          • Logic

            So are you going to interact with what I said or do you just need a safe space? You feel your view is Biblical and you can back it up with the Bible right? I asked you some questions and i’m still waiting for those answers. I mean how hard can it be to answer a few questions and give me the verses I asked for? I mean your ‘so sure it’s Biblical’ so it shouldn’t be hard to find verses to back up your assumptions.

            See, you came into MY HOUSE with the attitude ‘ I’m right, your wrong and nobody can tell me different, I can’t be corrected.’ If I came into your house it would be ‘The Bible is right, you are wrong, I can show you why you are wrong.’

            We go about things with two different intentions. Like I said, how you came in is no different then a Catholic, JW, or Mormon, coming to this site saying “Well guys your wrong and here is why.” “I know you have a consistent Biblical view but your wrong because I KNOW I’M RIGHT, I CAN’T PROVE IT, BUT I’M RIGHT.”

            Either interact with the challenge and questions I gave you. Or get out of my house please.

          • Logic

            My turn to reverse this on you. Give me the verses in John where the word world is used and we know for a fact it can’t mean every single individual. They exist. If you can’t find them I’d me more than happy to show you them. I can also show the same thing in Paul’s writings.

          • Logic

            Never mind I’ll provide the verses doubt you know them since you assume universalism with every world like world/all.

            John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how
            ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

            So JD you have common sense right and use logic. Does the word world in John 12:19 make since if you say it means every single individual went after him. I mean the word is God breathed we both agree. So since we know the bible to be true with your reason that means every single individual went after him right? How about the one below.

            John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot
            receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for
            he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

            If “world” always means every single
            person then Christ would have just said no-one can receive the Spirit of truth.
            And Christ would have also included the Apostles among those who could
            not receive the Spirit of truth. But it is evident that every single
            person is not meant, for Christ goes on to say that the Apostles did know the
            Spirit of truth who dwelled in them. It is also evident that all believers
            receive the Spirit of truth therefore “world” does not mean every single person right JD?

            Lets look at some others shall we? Oh wait a writing of Paul that says WHOLE WORLD and doesn’t mean every single individual? HOW COULD THIS BE JD?

            Ro 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that
            your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

            When Paul wrote this epistle, did the natives of North and South America know
            of the faith of the church at Rome? What about many other people in the
            furthest places on earth? Did they know about the Roman Church’s faith in
            Christ at that time? Paul is using “world” as a figure of speech to
            indicate that the faith of the Roman Church was known in a great many places by
            a great many people but not that every single person of earth knew about their
            faith.

            OH WAIT MORE BY PAUL THE AUTHOR THAT YOU KEEP STEALING VERSUS FROM AND ASSUMING UNIVERSALISM:

            Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world , what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

            The “casting away of them” is referring to the the nation of Israel.
            The “reconciling of the world” is referring to the Gentiles. But if
            “world” always means every single person then Paul’s statement makes no sense
            for he would have just said that God had cast away people that He reconciled.
            Thus, “world” here, as in other places, doesn’t mean every single person.

            SO TELL ME JD. WITH YOUR GREAT LOGIC. CAN AND DO ALL THESE VERSUS MEAN EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL OR NOT. SURELY YOU WOULDN’T SAY THAT GOD GAVE US A GOD BREATHED WORD THAT DIDN’T MAKE SENSE.

          • Logic

            Let’s look at JD’s universalism assumption with these verses. Let’s show JD how world or whole world has been used not meaning every single individual in the New Testament from the very writers he take verses from and tries to force universalism on them.

            John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how
            ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

            So
            JD you have common sense right and use logic. Does the word world in
            John 12:19 make since if you say it means every single individual went
            after him. I mean the word is God breathed we both agree. So since we
            know the bible to be true with your reason that means every single
            individual went after him right? How about the one below.

            John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot
            receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for
            he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

            If “world” always means every single
            person then Christ would have just said no-one can receive the Spirit of truth.
            And Christ would have also included the Apostles among those who could
            not receive the Spirit of truth. But it is evident that every single
            person is not meant, for Christ goes on to say that the Apostles did know the
            Spirit of truth who dwelled in them. It is also evident that all believers
            receive the Spirit of truth therefore “world” does not mean every single person right JD?

            Lets
            look at some others shall we? Oh wait a writing of Paul that says WHOLE
            WORLD and doesn’t mean every single individual? HOW COULD THIS BE JD?

            Ro 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that
            your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

            When Paul wrote this epistle, did the natives of North and South America know
            of the faith of the church at Rome? What about many other people in the
            furthest places on earth? Did they know about the Roman Church’s faith in
            Christ at that time? Paul is using “world” as a figure of speech to
            indicate that the faith of the Roman Church was known in a great many places by
            a great many people but not that every single person of earth knew about their
            faith.

            OH WAIT MORE BY PAUL THE AUTHOR THAT YOU KEEP STEALING VERSUS FROM AND ASSUMING UNIVERSALISM:

            Ro
            11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world ,
            what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

            The “casting away of them” is referring to the the nation of Israel.
            The “reconciling of the world” is referring to the Gentiles. But if
            “world” always means every single person then Paul’s statement makes no sense
            for he would have just said that God had cast away people that He reconciled.
            Thus, “world” here, as in other places, doesn’t mean every single person.

            SO
            TELL ME JD. WITH YOUR GREAT LOGIC. CAN AND DO ALL THESE VERSUS MEAN
            EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL OR NOT. SURELY YOU WOULDN’T SAY THAT GOD GAVE US
            A GOD BREATHED WORD THAT DIDN’T MAKE SENSE.

          • JD

            You are correct. Not one verse does. Many do 🙂

            Have a great day!

          • Logic

            John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how
            ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

            So JD you have common sense right and use logic. Does the word world in
            John 12:19 make since if you say it means every single individual went
            after him. I mean the word is God breathed we both agree. So since we
            know the bible to be true with your reason that means every single
            individual went after him right? How about the one below.

            John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot
            receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for
            he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

            If “world” always means every single
            person then Christ would have just said no-one can receive the Spirit of truth.
            And Christ would have also included the Apostles among those who could
            not receive the Spirit of truth. But it is evident that every single
            person is not meant, for Christ goes on to say that the Apostles did know the
            Spirit of truth who dwelled in them. It is also evident that all believers
            receive the Spirit of truth therefore “world” does not mean every single person right JD?

            Lets
            look at some others shall we? Oh wait a writing of Paul that says WHOLE
            WORLD and doesn’t mean every single individual? HOW COULD THIS BE JD?

            Ro 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that
            your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

            When Paul wrote this epistle, did the natives of North and South America know
            of the faith of the church at Rome? What about many other people in the
            furthest places on earth? Did they know about the Roman Church’s faith in
            Christ at that time? Paul is using “world” as a figure of speech to
            indicate that the faith of the Roman Church was known in a great many places by
            a great many people but not that every single person of earth knew about their
            faith.

            OH WAIT MORE BY PAUL THE AUTHOR THAT YOU KEEP STEALING VERSUS FROM AND ASSUMING UNIVERSALISM:

            Ro
            11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world ,
            what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

            The “casting away of them” is referring to the the nation of Israel.
            The “reconciling of the world” is referring to the Gentiles. But if
            “world” always means every single person then Paul’s statement makes no sense
            for he would have just said that God had cast away people that He reconciled.
            Thus, “world” here, as in other places, doesn’t mean every single person.

            SO
            TELL ME JD. WITH YOUR GREAT LOGIC. CAN AND DO ALL THESE VERSUS MEAN
            EVERY SINGLE INDIVIDUAL OR NOT. SURELY YOU WOULDN’T SAY THAT GOD GAVE US
            A GOD BREATHED WORD THAT DIDN’T MAKE SENSE.

          • Logic

            If God wanted to save every single individual He easily could because he is omnipotent.

            John 6:37King James Version (KJV)

            37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

            Why did the Father not give every single person to the Son if he wanted every single person that ever lived and ever will live to be saved? (Let me make this clear, Those whom ‘HE GAVE’ to the Son WILL come to the Son.

          • Logic

            He laid his life down for his sheep. Enough said. He did not ever say, and He had more then just a chance to say it. He never ever ever ever said “I laid my life down for every single person who ever lived and ever will live.” He specifically said red letters and all I laid my life down for the sheep. We know for a fact the sheep is not every single individual because those whom he laid his life down for will for a fact and guaranteed come to him and be saved.

            Let’s talk about the sheep shall we. This is too fun.

            9. John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me,

            10. John 10:26-28 But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,

            11. John 10:3-4 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. After he has
            gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him
            because they know his voice.

          • Logic

            You are still not answering any questions or giving any meaningful interactions. Simple questions.

            Who are the sheep? Who are the ones that were given to Christ?
            The answer is below but I still expect to hear your answer.

            This truth is seen in many passages throughout Scripture. In John 10:15,
            we see that He lays “down His life for the sheep.” Who are the sheep?
            They are the people chosen by God from before the foundation of the
            world (Ephesians 1:4).
            These are the same ones Jesus said were given to Him by the Father in
            order that He would fulfill the Father’s will by losing none of them and
            by raising all of them up in the last day (John 6:37-40).

          • JD

            Why are you asking who the sheep are? That is not what this conversation is about. We are discussing whether He died only for the sheep. Yes He died for the sheep, the ones God foresaw and predestined. Once again, you have blown our minds by believing He died for the sheep. Congratulations! What a revelation.

          • JD

            How about three

            1 John 2:2 (KJV)
            2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, BUT ALSO for the sins of the whole world.

            2 Corinthians 5:15 (KJV)
            15 And that he died for ALL, that they which live SHOULD not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

            Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
            18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

          • Logic

            Once again These are Letters. Also these did not come from the mouth of Jesus spoken in RED. You should first Go into the Canonical Gospels and see what JESUS HIMSELF SAID. John 10:15 RED LETTERS JESUS SAID.

            John 10:15King James Version (KJV)

            15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

            Then after seeing What Jesus himself said. You can go into the Letter of 1 John, the letter to the Corinthians and the letter to the Romans to see how this can stay true and not contradiction what Jesus himself said.

          • JD

            Any good reformist would not discount scriptures because they are not in RED. You are a messed up person who is not properly representing anyone but yourself.

            You have violated foundational doctrines of all Christians by your comments.

            First you question whether Jesus died for Hitler or child molesters. You reveal that you think some people are more worthy of choosing than others. No mature believer in any camp holds to such clear error.

            Secondly, you keep saying that the words in RED are more important because Jesus said them. You reveal that you do not consider the entire Word of God to be breathed by God and equally important.

          • Logic

            Once again the sign of a failed argument. Name calling. Nobody discounted the Black letters, you are misrepresenting me just like you do the Bible. We do on the other hand know for a fact what Jesus spoke himself which is in Red letters. Which should be understood that if you go against What he said and not start with that as the beginning point you are calling Jesus himself a liar. Good luck with answering for that bud. What Jesus himself spoke comes first and helps put the rest in context. Jesus did not die for Hitler. Hitler was not his sheep and did not come to him. He was not given to Jesus by the Father. Nobody chooses. God in no way is unjust for not showing mercy to everyone. That called emotionalism. God is just, those for whom Christ didn’t die for receive justice he also freely shows mercy to others. And finally, The words in RED are to be taken of high importance since they come from Jesus himself which can help put other things in to context. I 100 percent believe the Word is God breathed and profitable, good for correction I believe it it be without error or contradiction. which you obviously don’t believe. From your reasoning you leave contradictions. you put the work of the cross in vain because Jesus couldn’t save all whom he died for. You strip God of his omnipotence by saying, ” well God wants to save these people but he can’t he could only provide an opportunity and even though he wanted really bad and tried as hard as he could he couldn’t save them because in the end man was just too powerful and didn’t choose me.” pft get behind me Satan. The LORD rebuke you!

          • JD

            Prime example of your methods of communication: You opened up saying I was name calling which proved my argument was failing. Then you proceeded to call me Satan.

            So you said name calling was proof my argument was failing and then you proceeded to call me names. Ironically I did not even call you a name in my comment you were responding to. You are a colorful individual, no doubt.

          • Logic

            I thought you were gone buddy? Good way to stay on topic. If your coming back how about you interact like a serious minded person and get back to interacting with the challenge I gave you?

          • Logic

            Like I said your argument is terrible. If you are going to held to this perversion at least you the best argument from your camp kiddo. Here I’ll even supply it for you below….

            Question: “Is the atonement of Christ unlimited?”

            Answer:
            The Bible has much to say on the atonement of Christ. The question is whether His sacrifice provided limited or unlimited atonement. The word atonement
            means “satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.” The
            doctrine of unlimited atonement states that Christ died for all people,
            whether or not they would ever believe in Him. When applied to Jesus’
            finished work on the cross, atonement concerns the reconciliation of God
            and humankind, as accomplished through the suffering and death of
            Christ. Paul highlights the atoning work of Jesus when he says, “But God
            demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners,
            Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how
            much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while
            we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of
            his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved
            through his life!” (Romans 5:8–10).

            How this reparation of wrongs or reconciliation was accomplished and
            what was involved in the act, has been debated by theologians for
            centuries. There are at least nine different positions on the atonement
            of Christ, ranging anywhere from the atonement being merely a positive
            example for us (the Moral Example theory) to its being a judicial,
            substitutionary act (the Penal Substitution theory).

            But perhaps the most controversial debate concerning the atonement of
            Jesus centers on what is referred to as “limited” or “definite”
            atonement. One theological camp (comprised primarily of those holding to
            Arminianism and Wesleyanism) believes that Christ died on the cross for
            everyone who will ever live. The other theological camp—made up of
            Reformed thinkers, who are often called “Calvinists” after the Reformer
            John Calvin—say that Jesus only died for those whom the Father chose
            from the foundation of the world to be saved. This group of redeemed
            individuals is often referred to as the “elect” or the “chosen” of God.
            Which position is correct? Did Jesus die for everyone in the world or
            only a select group of individuals?

            Is Everyone Going to be Saved?

            In examining this issue, the first question to ask is this: is everyone
            going to be saved through the atoning work of Christ? Those holding to a
            position called universalism
            say “yes.” The universalists argue that, because Christ died for
            everyone and all the sins of humanity were laid on/punished in Christ,
            everyone will spend eternity with God.

            Scripture, however, stands in opposition to such teaching (which can be
            traced back to a teacher named Laelius Socinus in the 16th century). The
            Bible makes it abundantly clear that many people will be lost, with
            just a few verses highlighting this fact following:

            • “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to
            everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2)

            • “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is
            broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through
            it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and
            there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:13–14)

            • “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
            Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform
            many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;
            depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness’” (Matthew 7:22–23)

            • “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46)

            • “They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from
            the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

            • “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15)

            Since not everyone will be saved, there is one inescapable fact to understand: the atonement of Christ is limited.
            If it isn’t, then universalism must be true, and yet Scripture clearly
            teaches that not everyone is going to be saved. So, unless one is a
            universalist and can defeat the biblical evidence above, then one must
            hold to some form of limited atonement.

            How, Then, Is the Atonement Limited?

            The next important question to examine is this: if the atonement is
            limited (and it is), how is it limited? Jesus’ famous statement in John 3:16
            provides the answer: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one
            and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have
            eternal life.” In this passage, the necessary condition that limits the
            atonement is found: “whosoever believes” (literally in the Greek: “all
            the believing ones”). In other words, the atonement is limited to those
            who believe and only those who believe.

            Who Limits the Atonement?

            Both theological camps previously mentioned will not argue this point –
            the atonement of Christ is limited to those who believe. The
            disagreement occurs over the next question that arises: who limits the
            atonement—God or man? Calvinists/Reformed thinkers maintain that God
            limits the atonement by choosing those whom He will save, and thus God
            only placed on Christ the sins of those He had chosen for salvation. The
            Arminian/Wesleyan position states that God does not limit the
            reparation of Christ, but instead it is humanity that limits the
            atonement by freely choosing to accept or reject the offer that God
            makes to them for salvation.

            A common way for the Arminian/Wesleyan theologians to state their position is that the atonement is unlimited in its invitation but limited in its application.
            God offers the invitation to all; however, only those who respond in
            faith to the gospel message have the work of the atonement applied to
            their spiritual condition.

            To support the position that humanity, and not God, limits the
            atonement, the Arminian/Wesleyan lists a number of Scripture verses,
            including the following:

            • “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2, emphasis added)

            • “The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, ‘Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”” (John 1:29, emphasis added)

            • “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of
            this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh” (John 6:51, emphasis added)

            • “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself” (John 12:32, emphasis added)

            • “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time” (1 Timothy 2:5–6, emphasis added)

            • “But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the
            angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with
            glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone” (Hebrews 2:9, emphasis added)

            • “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will
            also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce
            destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves” (2 Peter 2:1, emphasis added)

            In addition to the biblical references above, the Arminian/Wesleyan
            theologian also provides a number of logical arguments to support their
            case. The most common is that, if God is all-loving, how could Christ
            not die for everyone? Doesn’t God love each and every person (cf. John 3:16)? They see an atonement limited by God as a denial of the omnibenevolence of God.

            Furthermore, the Arminian/Wesleyan believes that an atonement limited by
            God is devastating to the gospel message. How can an evangelist preach
            that “Christ died for you” if Christ did not indeed die for all? There
            is a complete lack of confidence, they say, in making the statement to
            any one person that Christ died for them because the evangelist has no
            real idea (given an atonement limited by God) if that is really the
            case.

            Unlimited Atonement—the Conclusion

            Unless one is a universalist and believes that everyone will ultimately
            be saved, a Christian must hold to some form of a limited atonement. The
            key area of disagreement is over who limits that atonement—God or man?
            Those wishing to hold to a God-limited atonement must answer the
            biblical arguments put forth by those holding to a human-limited
            atonement and also explain how God can be described in Scripture as
            being all-loving and yet not have His Son die for everyone.

          • JD

            Kiddo? How old are you? Where did you go to seminary? How long have you been in ministry? How many times have you read the entire Bible? These are just a few questions I am curious about if you are going to correct this kiddo.

            The atonement of Christ is absolutely unlimited.

          • JD

            How many people did judgment come upon when Adam brought sin into the world? When the Bible says that judgment came upon ALL men does that mean some mysterious or specific group of people out of mankind or does it actually mean ALL mankind?
            If the Bible actually means what it says and Adam’s sin brought judgment upon ALL mankind then it also means what it says when it says that Jesus brought the free gift to ALL mankind.

          • Logic

            When Adam brought sin into the world. It came upon every single person. Sometimes when the Bible says all It means all, Sometimes when it says all it is speaking of Jew/Gentile or all of the Jewish nation. This is a fact. Once again you arguments are terrible.

          • JD

            Wow you just destroyed your argument all by your self. The “even so” in this verse means “in the same exact way.” Would you have us believe that the first part of verse 18 is talking about all men and the second half is talking about the elect?

            Romans 5:18
            18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

          • Logic

            I just have to reply again your making this way too easy. 1 John 2:2 Is a letter you do know that right? Also, 1 John 2:2 was never spoken from Jesus and is not in red letter. Also anyone who opens a bible to 1 John will see that 1 John 1:5-2:28 in the outline have to do with fellowship with the Father and the son. I mean dude this is laughable seriously. So you are going to go to 1 John which is a letter and has a specific outline and contents. That is not What Jesus himself spoke or is in red letters meaning he spoke it. Then try to use that to override what Christ himself actually said and is in red like John 10:15. You are hilarious.

          • JD

            Your childish rant is disgusting. Jesus did not say he only died for the sheep. You are inserting that idea into the text. That is called eisegesis. Taking one verse and inserting an idea that contradicts many other verses even though that one verse is not even saying what you are saying is terrible hermeneutics. What Bible college did you attend?

          • Logic

            A sign of a failed argument. More name calling then bible verses lol… John 10:15 Which is in RED lettering. Jesus actually said this himself.

            John 10:15King James Version (KJV)

            15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

            So once again you continually fail to interact like every other SBC traditionalist.
            So whom was Jesus quoted saying He laid his life down for. Who are these sheep?

            I’ve asked this numerous times by the way …. It’s almost not even funny anymore….

          • JD

            I have clearly answered your question over and over again. You provided a few verses that say He died for the sheep. I provided verses that say he died for all mankind. All of them are true. I accept the verses you provided. You refuse to accept the ones I provided but rather give some awkward rant about outlines.
            You keep insinuating that the “red letters” are more important than anything else. What kind of reformist are you who does not even take the entire Word of God as equally inspired?

          • Logic

            No The verses you did provide are letters with a proper context. You have still failed to answer who his sheep are. Also John 10:15 was spoken from Jesus himself. The verses from the letters you are referring to were not spoken from Jesus. They were letters written to the Romans and Corinthians which held a specific context. The bible is clear on who these sheep are and it’s not every single person.

            You said you have answered me clearly answer whom the sheep are? The bible describes the sheep very clearly in the Gospel of John. Answer whom those are whom are given to Christ? PS. John 6:37-40 are also in RED LETTERS.

            This truth is seen in many passages throughout Scripture. In John 10:15,
            we see that He lays “down His life for the sheep.” Who are the sheep?
            They are the people chosen by God from before the foundation of the
            world (Ephesians 1:4).
            These are the same ones Jesus said were given to Him by the Father in
            order that He would fulfill the Father’s will by losing none of them and
            by raising all of them up in the last day (John 6:37-40).

          • JD

            The sheep are those who hear His voice and receive His offer of the free gift of salvation. They are the elect who were predestined according to God’s foreknowledge. They are the children of the Kingdom whom God is pleased to give the Kingdom to.
            YES HE DIED FOR THE SHEEP. I have said that over and over. It is obvious to anyone who reads the Bible who the sheep are. What the Bible does not teach in red letters or white letters is that Jesus ONLY died for the sheep. You are inserting that idea from your own misguided “logic.”

          • Logic

            Where does the Bible say. His sheep hear his voice and receive his offer of the free gift of salvation? Are we looking at the same KJV? Or are you using the book of Mormon or watchtower bible?

          • JD

            John 10:27 (HCSB)
            27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.

            As for His sheep receiving His free gift of salvation every reformist I know believes that. Do you not believe His sheep receive His free gift of salvation? You are so twisted I don’t even know where you are coming from. The scripture about casting pearls to swine is ringing in my ears.

          • Logic

            Yes He died for his sheep. John 10:15. Those whom he died for he completes his work because the Cross is not in VAIN.

            John 6:37King James Version (KJV)

            37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

            This is also in RED spoken by Jesus himself.

            Those whom the Father did not give will not come to him. Period.

            You have failed to interact bud. You have failed to give me verses I’ve asked for like when you said there is a verse about Jesus dying for his enemies. You have failed to interact with who these sheep are in the Bible. No wonder so many people leave churches because they can’t get consistent answers. There is not one verse you have thrown out as of yet that has helped your argument or even legitimately back it up.

          • Logic

            Obviously the Father didn’t give every single person to Jesus or they would ALL come to him. You my friend with that logic are calling Jesus a liar. Once again Good luck with that. Even though you oppose the truth and seem like an enemy I do hope the LORD brings you to the truth. Since spelling it out hasn’t helped. It’s like showing someone why 2 +2 is 4 yet they still reject it.

          • Logic

            Yes In red letters John 10:15 He did for his sheep. Also in red Letters mentions who these sheep are.
            John 6:37–40

            37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

            John 37-All that the Father GIVES me will come to me,
            Parallel verse –John 10:26-28 But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,

          • Logic

            Actually the Bible has black letters. It also has Red letters which indicate what Jesus himself spoke. Your inaccuracies are astounding.

          • Logic

            Open any Bible with red lettering which is an indication of what Jesus himself said. I feel like I’m having a discussion with a kid. John 10:15spoken by Jesus himself.

          • Logic

            You know your not the first person to get mad they are wrong and name call. I know a lot of children who do the same thing.

          • Logic

            Also I used to be apart of your camp. I also provided a way better argument for your camp above then you do. I even provided the history behind your view and who it came from which I doubt you know. This isn’t a debate or a discussion. Your view is a perversion of the scripture. Like i said. Read this very specific verse. The only verse that teaches whom Christ laid down his life for.

            John 10:15King James Version (KJV)

            15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

            Now tell me who did he lay his life down for. If you go against what this verse says that proves you hold to a contradictory message and pervert the Gospel.

          • Logic

            PS. Big boy. For you lack of logic understand this. I’m an author. If I wrote Christ loves us all. You would assume from my book I mean every individual. I would tell you no, I mean those of us in Christ. The author John very clearly in all of his books. Tells us what he means. The author describes what he means. Not you. Snakes everywhere perverting the truth. Trying to speak for the author pft.

          • Gerhard

            Logic, I have watched you debate. It is quite clear you behave in an arrogant way. You don’t read responses. You insist on having greater insight whereas the opposite is true. Note to you – grace is only available to the humble. Now please consider how and who is responsible for humbling anyone whatsoever. Blessings.

          • thehawkfam8889

            The Rich Young Ruler

            16And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
            17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
            18Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
            19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
            20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”
            21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
            22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

            23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
            24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
            25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?”
            26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

            (19:21 sell what you possess. Jesus’ instruction to the young man to sell all he has demonstrates that he is unwittingly in violation of the first commandment—“You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3)—for he cannot bear to part with his wealth even for the sake of eternal life in the kingdom of God. What he lacks is the attitude that abandons everything (13:44, 45; 16:24–26) to receive God’s unearned grace (Phil. 3:7–9)

            You say The Rich Ruler resisted God’s calling? This was not a calling as you are viewing it. This doesn’t have anything to do with whom the Father gave the Son. This doesn’t have to do with whom God chose or elected. This is a lesson. Once again brother you are taking it out of context.

            Nowhere in anything Al Toid said did I get God keeps his Jewish people from repenting. What you do get is unregenerate man does not seek after God which is 100 percent consistent with scripture. God freely saves and gives His spirit. He doesn’t have to keep anyone from repenting. They do that naturally. If He chooses to gift them with faith in repentance that’s His freedom. Certainly don’t accuse God as if he forces people not to repent or he forces us to sin.

            Romans 9:15-For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”

            So are we saying God truly doesn’t have the freedom to show mercy on some and not others?

        • Yes, that is true… by His free gift of Grace, that He freely gives everyone. Here’s a practical example, an analogy if you will: You are walking along and find man down in a very deep hole. There are several things that could happen. The man in the hole could be trying to get out on his own, but failing. You offer him your hand to help, but he refuses saying he can save himself and needs no help (the pelagian). Or, the man in the hole is just sitting there in the hole. You offer your hand and the man refusing and tells you he doesn’t want out and tells you to go away (the unrepentant sinner). Or, the man in the hole has been trying to get out of the hole, when in his defeat, realizes he is utterly helpless. He looks up and sees your outstretched hand, he sees that you are his only hope. He chooses to take your hand and is saved (the Christian). …with His initial outstretched hand (grace) we choose by repenting, or not to take his hand and be saved.

          • Al Toid

            Ah you are almost there….but not quite. You see, the man in the well is actually dead (we are dead in our trespasses) and cannot even lift his poor hand.

      • theGiantMidget 2000

        You forget one thing: we are born sinful.
        When man sinned all fairness and any chance of our ever being right with God again was thrown out the window. Because of this it would be perfectly just and right if every singe one of us burned in hell, separated from God forever.

        BUT GOD

        But God out of HIS free will not ours chose to make a way so that he wouldn’t have to destroy each and everyone of the human race, which would be justice.
        So you ask: if God can save some of us why not all?
        Well I think that would be a good question to ask him when we get there. but ultimately we must remember that all of creation serves one purpose: to bring glory to God. Everything we know in this world and all of eternity is solely for his glory.

        • JD

          So you are saying that our choice to sin made it right for us all to burn in Hell? I would agree with that but unfortunately you are contradicting hyper Calvinism by saying that. Did man have a choice to sin or not?

          According to the doctrine which you appear to want to support here, man had no choice. You are supporting a teaching which says God made all men sin and then He saved the ones He wanted to simply because He is God and He can do whatever He wants. It teaches that God actually created some men for the sole purpose of judging them and sending them to Hell to demonstrate His justice. It is a very sick and perverted doctrine that has no place in the Body of Christ. I thank God that He is not a God who would create someone to torture them for eternity to demonstrate His justice.

          1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
          3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
          4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

          God did bind all men over to disobedience. He did so to reveal to them that no one can produce righteousness but Him. He did so in order to give us an opportunity to believe in Him and not in ourselves.

          Romans 11:32 (NKJV)
          32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (God has turned ALL over to bondage so that He may mercy on them ALL)

          • thehawkfam8889

            So Let’s start with 1 TIM 2:4
            2:4 who desires all people to be saved. This does not mean that God sovereignly wills every human being to be saved (i.e., that God saves or wishes to save everyone, since Rom. 9:18–24 says otherwise, and speaks of God’s “desire” in expressing His election and reprobation). It may refer to God’s general benevolence in taking no delight in the death of the wicked (Ezek. 33:11) or to God’s desire that all types of people (v. 1 note) be saved (i.e., God does not choose His elect from any single nationality, class, or other group).

            Romans 11:-25-32
            11:25–32 Paul’s close reasoning here has been understood in three major ways: (a) He is showing how God saves all of His elect people (“all Israel” in v. 26 being taken as basically synonymous with the church, that is, spiritual Israel, composed of the elect from every nation). (b) He is showing how God saves all the elect of (ethnic) Israel who are to be saved. (c) He is showing how God will, in the future, bring such widespread salvation to the Jewish people that, in an obvious general sense, it can be said that “all Israel will be saved” (v. 26). While not without difficulties, some form of this last view seems most likely for the following reasons. First, hints of it seem to appear already in vv. 11, 12, 15, 16, 24. Second, v. 25 suggests that an end to the partial hardening of Israel is in view. Third, “Israel” in v. 26 is not naturally interpreted as signifying a different entity from the Israel in view in vv. 1–24 and vv. 28–31, where national Israel (not spiritual Israel) is in view. Fourth, “mystery”—a matter known only through divine revelation—in v. 25 would seem inappropriate and exaggerated if Paul’s teaching were simply that all elect Jews will be saved. Finally, this view accords well with the quotations in vv. 26, 27 from Is. 59:20, 21; 27:9; Jer. 31:33, 34, which appear to speak of a comprehensive banishment of that sin that has been the cause of Israel’s alienation from God

            Don’t forget Paul wrote Romans. Also don’t forget who he is speaking to. People forget in context that All being used doesn’t mean every single individual how lived and who will ever live. Same for the word world in John 3:16-Which in context means Jews and Gentiles not every single individual.

          • JD

            You know what “every” and “all” means in the Greek? I know this is deep but it means every and all. There is no hidden Hebrew meaning to all. When they said “all” they meant all. When they said “every man” that meant every man. When they said that Jesus is the propitiation not only for our sins but also the sins of the whole world they meant the whole world.
            I choose to believe what the Bible says rather than make it fit my doctrines.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Nobody said there is a hidden meaning. The issue is your assumption in every verse that it means every single individual. Any honest person going into the text will agree that there are multiple places where ALL and WORLD doesn’t and cannot mean every single individual. I’ve offered a refutation using scripture to back up the commentary. You have provided nothing friend.

            You should take the time to actually read what I have posted and all the scripture that goes with it. It is consistent with the entirety of the Bible and your argument is not. I don’t pick and choose versus and try to bend them to my belief. I have posted so much in these comments to refute you and you have offered nothing. If this was a live moderated debate you lost my friend.

      • Sean Hamburg

        If you say no to God you go to hell right ? If you say yes you get saved right? So all the suffering that the Triune God of the Bible endured for the salvation of His children will be in vain if they said NO, right? and so we must deduce that the Blood of the Lamb has limited power to save, it is only omnipotent to thoroughly save when a child of the DEVIL says yes to God ! So the child of the DEVIL helps in the salvation of his own soul by saying yes? This is more demonic than what calvinists are accused of my friend. This teaching deifies man and makes the work of the Cross ineffective without him having the last say! God saving a soul is not just any soul to Him of the billions, He only saves by His Grace, HIS Jacobs that He loved! The Esaus are left to there own free will to do as they please.They might be good church people, they might even know him but the big question is does HE KNOW them? Matt 7v21 ! He only KNOWS those that He chose ! Research the word KNOW in scripture. Search my friend and you will find for sure, God has started your mind going, your interest is His “blessed curiosity” that He put into your heart long before He created the earth ! Go figure. Be blessed !

        • JD

          Unfortunately your reasoning contradicts many scriptures. I realize it does no good to argue so I won’t attempt to do so but I will quote some scriptures that very plainly refute your entire foundation.

          John 3:16 (KJV)
          16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSEVER believeth in him SHOULD not perish, but have everlasting life.

          Romans 11:32 (NKJV)
          32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (God has turned ALL over to bondage so that He may mercy on them ALL)

          1 John 2:2 (KJV)
          2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

          2 Corinthians 5:15 (KJV)
          15 And that he died for all, that they which live SHOULD not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (Notice it says “should” just like John 3:16. The fact that Jesus died for all men and that all men SHOULD turn to Him and be saved, does not mean that they will. He knew who would and who would not. According that foreknowledge, He knows who is His and who is not.)

          Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
          18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
          19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

          I know you can show in the scriptures how those of us who have trusted Jesus for our salvation are the redeemed and the chosen. That does not refute anything that I or most Christians believe. It actually supports our faith in God’s omniscience and foreknowledge.

          • theGiantMidget 2000

            john 3:16, simply put whoever believes will be saved. OK but who will believe? God. It does not say “anyone can believe” it only says “of those that believe all will be saved”.

            Rom 11:32 I commented on that one earlier 🙂

            1 John 2:2 “world” general, not specific or individual.

          • JD

            lol, good try buddy. Thank God His Word will always speak for itself no matter how many sects rise up and try to twist it to fit their twisted ideas taught by philosophizing men.

            Spirituality and religion aside, any normal person who can read English knows what the Bible means when it says NOT FOR OURS ONLY BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. In case you need a lesson in English the phrase “Not for ours only” is clearly referring to those of us who are saved. The follow up “but also for the sins of the whole world” cannot be any more clear. “But also” means he is not just our propitiation, He is not just the “chosen’s” propitiation. He is every man’s propitiation. Your doctrine the He is the propitiation for “our” sins but not for “theirs” is completely obliterated with this one scripture as well as many others that you cannot just finagle your way out of.

            Of course you have a right to believe about God whatever you want to. I just feel sorry for you believing in the God of your making who is nothing like the one I have known intimately for many years. You may very well be saved by putting your faith in the blood of Jesus and I certainly hope you are but you are being robbed of the Gospel that the entire world has been reconciled if they would simply believe and look to Jesus! What Jesus accomplished on the cross is being torn down by the doctrines of men, attempting to lessen its full impact on all mankind. Jesus finished the work for EVERY man, woman and child. That is the Gospel we need to preach around the world, not the nonsense you and others are propagating on the web. If you would get out and tell EVERY person you meet that Jesus has reconciled them to God and if they would only look to Him and believe in Him that they would be delivered, healed, set free and made whole then you might find some more “chosen” people out there.

            How you can even imagine that when Jesus said to go and preach the GOOD NEWS to EVERY CREATURE that He meant to go and tell people that many of them were created for Hell by God’s choice but perhaps some of them are chosen by God’s “grace” to be saved? It is the biggest sham I have ever heard in my life.

          • theGiantMidget 2000

            OK so I believe we both agree that man is sinful and is damned to eternal separation from God apart from the blood of Christ, that is the important part.

            I wholeheartedly agree with your first point, in fact I have said that very thing many time in the past 🙂

            Yes he is the atoning sacrifice for the whole world, but the whole world will not accept that. I never said he is the propitiation for only “our” sins, not “theirs.” Look I don’t know how to make it any more simple, 1) Jesus took the sins of every man 2) to be saved a person must see, understand, and believe that good news 3)only those whom God allows will be able to understand and believe (see mark 4 below)
            Here Jesus is speaking to his disciples and he says this:
            ]||{“The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to
            ]||{ you. But to those on the outside everything is said in
            ]||{ parables 12 so that,
            ]||{“‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
            ]||{ and ever hearing but never understanding;
            ]||{ otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”
            Wow. Pretty straight forward. Let’s just say I’m looking forward to see how you are going to “finagle your way out” of this one.

            Look you need to be careful in the way you debate your fellow Christians, if I didn’t know any better it would seem that you are ostracizing me by saying things like “the God of YOUR making” … “NOTHING like the one I know.” Something like that may cause a young believer to doubt.

            I fully agree that we must preach the gospel to all, why? well, the great commission of course. I would also argue that when we share the gospel we must operate from the viewpoint that anyone could be saved because as humans we (obviously) cannot know who, will be/is, saved. I would agree that “anyone could be saved” because God could choose to save anyone, not because anyone could choose to be saved.

            “I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, “You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself.” My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.”
            -Charles Spurgeon

            “A man’s free will cannot cure him even of the toothache, or a sore finger; and yet he madly thinks it is in its power to cure his soul.”
            -Augustus Toplady

            “Just so we’re clear the words “free will” are not actually in
            the Bible. Predestination, on the other hand…”
            -R.C. Sproul, Jr.

            “If any man ascribes anything of salvation, even the very least thing, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace, and he has not learned Jesus Christ rightly.”
            -Martin Luther

            “God, our genes, our environment, or some stupid programmer keying in code at an ancient terminal – there’s no way free will can ever exist if we as individuals are the result of some external cause.”
            -Orson Scott Card

          • JD

            First of all let me apologize for my “tone”. You were more cordial and I commend you for that. I am just so sickened by what I consider to be possibly the biggest twist and misuse of scripture, that exist, to malign God’s character. Don’t get me wrong. There are a ton of sects out there who are extremely twisted and messed up but none of them make God into what Hyper Calvinist do.

            What is shocking is how you can actually now admit that Jesus died for every man’s sins and still say that He will harden many of them and destine them for Hell to somehow prove He is just. I am not sure why you cannot see how sick that is.

            You quote several people but unfortunately they are not here to defend their beliefs. Not all of them would say that God created some people to go to Hell and therefore they have no opportunity for salvation. Most of them were talking about something altogether different. They were talking about the fact that a man cannot save himself.

            After a very tangible encounter with God in 1995 I was delivered from ever thinking that I could produce righteousness. I saw the finished work for the first time and by the Holy Spirit I understand that it is not by might nor by power but by my Spirit saith the Lord. I have preached that every since. No man can deliver, heal or make himself whole by his own efforts, no matter how well meaning. That is the entire lesson of the Old Covenant, which was only put in place to reveal the need for a New and better one. That is what every single scripture hyper Calvinist take out of context is speaking of. That is the entire purpose for creating us a little lower than the angels for a season. We had to learn what Satan did not comprehend. Only God is good and only God can produce righteousness. There is no other source of Life or salvation than Him. He has taken great measures to prove that over and over to mankind. We were created inherit His Kingdom and to sit with Him on His throne. Unless we thoroughly learn and know deeply in our spirit that good only comes from God then we could be deceived by our own amazing inheritance as Satan was.

            Every single scripture about the chosen ones and the predestination is predicated upon the knowledge that it was all done through God’s foreknowledge. So that takes care of at least 99% of any thing you would bring up to support modern hyper Calvinism. So in God’s infinite wisdom and foresight he already knows who is His and who is not. That is a very simple and glorious concept that reveals the omniscience of God, lines up with every scripture in the Bible and does not need to discount any to stand on its own.

            Your concept, or at least the one you appear to be defending here, on the other hand, needs to discount and twist a vast number of scriptures to stand. You have to conclude that Jesus died for every person’s sins because there is no way around it. But then you immediately fall back to twisting it once again. So you say that yes He died for every person but He won’t let many of them receive it. That is simply asinine. That would be like me running into a fire to save you and then refusing to let you leave once I locate you in the fire. I would die for you but keep you from receiving the help I came to offer. I just ran into the fire to prove that I could save you and now I am going to keep you there to burn to show I am just and you did not deserve to be saved in the first place. It is absurd to say the least.

            You quote Isaiah chapter 6 where God calls him to the ministry and reveals to Him that it is God’s touch that makes a man clean and not man’s doing. He reveals to Isaiah that it is not by might nor by power but but the Spirit of God. Isaiah was very rightly excited at this new found revelation and wanted to go and tell everyone about it. So immediately after receiving the revelation God says, “Now who will go for me and preach.” Isaiah says, “Me, me, me, me!” To his surprise and disappointment God says, “Now go and close their eyes and ears so they cannot understand.” It was not time for the New Covenant to be fully revealed yet. The Law still had some crushing to do. Isaiah, knowing God’s character, responds “How Long?” Isaiah new right away that God closing their eyes and ears was temporary. He knew God had a purpose in it and He knew the purpose was a redemptive purpose because He had tasted and seen the Lord was good to all men.

            The question, “How Long?” is a very important question upon which so many amazing Bible truths are predicated upon. God’s answer was, “Until everything is broken down and all the remains is the holy seed.” Here is where your sect would say that is proof of predestination and that God only chooses a few of them. Once again another beautiful passage of scripture that reveals a tremendous amount of things is being misused to malign God’s character. It means so many things but making God out to be the one who makes people go to Hell is not one of them.

            It reveals:
            1.) Man is not ready to understand grace or to receive the New Covenant until the Law has completely broken him. The schoolmaster must do its work.
            2) Once the seed of God is planted in any person or group of people, such as Israel, the outer man must die and be broken before it can come to Life.
            3.) The pattern of God in working with mankind is to use all of life’s difficulties, resulting from our sinful natures, to teach us our need for Him. Many a man finds God at the end of his life when he begins to look back and see how he blew it in so many ways.
            4.) Those who persist to depend on the flesh and not turn to God will be destroyed and the meek / broken will inherit the Kingdom.

            This is one of the very portions of scripture that God used when He came to me in 1995 to reveal to me that it is not by might nor by power but by the Spirit that we are saved. Unfortunately a man cannot be saved until all his pride, self love and self dependence is broken down. Any man who thinks he can produce one ounce of good is not ready for salvation. He is not ready to hate his own life in order to lay hold of the Life of Christ. That is the reason that everything must be torn down in men. That is the reason for the Law. It was sent to break men. It was sent to reveal their utter sinfulness and show them their need for the righteousness of God. It was sent to show them they needed Jesus. Isaiah was prophesying the entire purpose of the Old Covenant and the the coming of a New Covenant. If you understood his entire book you would see this. It is beautiful and marvelous.

            God forbid that anyone would take such a revelatory portion of scripture and use it to say that God created some people to go to Hell, that he chooses to keep from ever seeing or hearing, simply to demonstrate His justice. Truly Jesus did come to make those who say they see to become blind. He spoke of this concerning the pharisees, scribes and teachers of the Law who thought they were the chosen ones and the common man were the sinners. This situation is slightly different, emphasis on slightly.

          • theGiantMidget 2000

            If you scroll down you will see that I responded to musefortune on his reply to you. That response is for you as well.

            In my aforementioned comment I said that I am not going to continue this debate any further (at least not here and now) so this will be my last comment (for some time… I hope 🙂 ).

            I must clarify one thing: God did not create ANYONE to go to hell. When God finished His creation there was no sin or death, there was no real boundary between God and man, heaven or earth, God walked with man and man with angels; it was as per the words of God Himself, “very good.” God did NOT create anyone “for” hell, in fact hell didn’t even exist. No sin, therefore no death, no need for hell.
            I don’t know if I made this clear before but I do believe that God did ORIGINALLY create man (i.e. Adam and Eve) with free will, let me explain. See before sin everything was perfect, God gave man free will because He wanted man to choose to love and obey Him and have a relationship with Him. But then Adam and Eve disobeyed God permanently staining their hearts black, blinding themselves and their descendants to what is good and right and shackling themselves to the iron ball of sin. So, 1) God gives Mankind free will 2) mankind turns from God 3) now that we have made our choice we deserve eternal separation from God, which is the definition of hell, because that was our choice. So I’m not saying “mankind didn’t have free will,” I’m saying “mankind already made it’s decision”

            Also I did not quote Isaiah, I quoted Jesus, in Mark, speaking directly to his disciples. His disciples asked him why he was speaking in parables and he says basically: I am speaking in parables so that those ‘on the outside’ will not believe. It’s pretty straight forward. As far as the “how long” it says “never”… twice…

            I didn’t come here to prove you wrong or to make a point, I came here in my life-long search for truth.

            Best wishes,
            In Christ

          • JD

            Thank you for clarifying. Honestly I have never heard your angle. It is an interesting one. The vast majority of reformed Calvinist believe God has always been and always will be in total control of everything. They do not believe there was a time that man had a free will. They believe that God created “vessels of wrath” to demonstrate his wrath and justice. In other words that God made some people to sent to Hell to reveal a part of His character. That really is the sickest part of the whole heresy.

            I am glad that you don’t believe in this stuff to that extent. There is always room for brothers to disagree because we see now through a glass dimly. On the other hand some things are so vile and wrong that we cannot just agree to disagree. Our God has never created anyone to go to Hell. He does not need to torment people for eternity to demonstrate that He is a just God. He wills that all men would be saved. Unfortunately many “will” not.

          • musefortune

            Wow JD. Just wow! I could just fall to my knees right now and praise God. Thank you for taking the time to write this. I feel edified and blessed that you would go to this trouble. I’m reminded of the song I used to sing in church as a little girl. “Spirit of the living God fall fresh on me. Break me, make me, mold me, fill me.” I have no doubt that God’s plan to save us is available to ANYONE who will cry out to Him and just ask. My prayer is that He will use us to share the gospel with everyone we encounter (the millions of hurting, torn souls in the world today) so they can hear, turn to Him, and be saved. (With no doubt or fear that maybe they are not the chosen ones.)

          • musefortune

            So tired of this argument and trying to help those who believe it, to see the error of their ways. Maybe it’s something the Holy Spirit needs to reveal to them.

          • JD

            I believe that you are absolutely right. Only the Holy Spirit can do it. I only comment for one reason. I know confused people will be mislead by these false teachings and perhaps by reading the comments they will find truth and not be deceived. I know the vast majority of those who cling to these grave errors are not open to reason or learning. They are convinced in their own minds and they make every scripture fit their error or they explain the ones that don’t away. If our goal is to change their minds we will be extremely frustrated. The best we can hope for is to help others looking in and to possibly plant some seeds in some of these “hyper Calvinist” that the Holy Spirit can work with down the road.

            So I am at peace and not feeling argumentative as I state my case for believing in God’s goodness toward all mankind.
            Peace on Earth and good will toward men :). Merry Christmas Brother.

          • theGiantMidget 2000

            OK so, please don’t take this the wrong way but that is the very first thing that I agree with you on and I do so wholeheartedly. I am plumb tired of this but it is also something that I am very passionate about, trying to find and help others find God’s truth that is.
            There is so much I want to say but I believe at this point, knowing that we are all on the same page as far as having a desire to truly understand the heart of God, I can find a better use of my time than practicing my typing skills on doctrinal debates with (as far as I can tell) fellow Christians.

            So, I thank you brothers for a healthy debate (just about a civil and thought provoking as it gets) and for helping me to further solidify my doctrine of predestination and sovereign grace (I don’t like the term “Calvinism” because, although it is helpful as a label for a larger group of generally aligned doctrines, it falsely implies that John Calvin fathered or invented the idea).

            I wish you many blessings and much success in your future Christ-centered endeavors. Shalom.

          • thehawkfam8889

            It is ironic that in the same chapter, indeed in the same context, in
            which our Lord teaches the utter necessity of rebirth to even see the
            kingdom, let alone choose it, non-Reformed views find one of their main
            proof texts to argue that fallen man retains a small island of ability
            to choose Christ. It is John 3:16:
            “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that
            whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

            What does this famous verse teach about fallen man’s ability to choose Christ? The answer, simply, is nothing.
            The argument used by non-Reformed people is that the text teaches that
            everybody in the world has it in their power to accept or reject Christ.
            A careful look at the text reveals, however, that it teaches nothing of
            the kind. What the text teaches is that everyone who believes in Christ
            will be saved. Whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting
            life). The text says nothing, absolutely nothing, about who will ever
            believe. It says nothing about fallen man’s natural moral ability.
            Reformed people and non-Reformed people both heartily agree that all who
            believe will be saved. They heartily disagree about who has the ability
            to believe.

            Some may reply, “All right. The text does not explicitly teach that
            fallen men have the ability to choose Christ without being reborn first,
            but it certainly implies that.” I am not willing to grant that the text
            even implies such a thing. However, even if it did it would make no
            difference in the debate. Why not? Our rule of interpreting Scripture is
            that implications drawn from the Scripture must always be subordinate
            to the explicit teaching of Scripture. We must never, never, never
            reverse this to subordinate the explicit teaching of Scripture to
            possible implications drawn from Scripture. This rule is shared by both
            Reformed and non-Reformed thinkers.

            If John 3:16
            implied a universal natural human ability of fallen men to choose
            Christ, then that implication would be wiped out by Jesus’ explicit
            teaching to the contrary. We have already shown that Jesus explicitly
            and unambiguously taught that no man has the ability to come to him
            without God doing something to give him that ability, namely
            drawing him.

            Fallen man is flesh. In the flesh he can do nothing to please God.
            Paul declares, “The fleshly mind is enmity against God; for it is not
            subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in
            the flesh cannot please God” (Rom. 8:7, 8).

            We ask, then, “Who are those who are ‘in the flesh’?” Paul goes on to
            declare: “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the
            Spirit of God dwells in you” (Rom. 8:9).
            The crucial word here is if. What distinguishes those who are in the
            flesh from those who are not is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. No
            one who is not reborn is indwelt by God the Holy Spirit. People who are
            in the flesh have not been reborn. Unless they are first reborn, born of
            the Holy Spirit, they cannot be subject to the law of God. They cannot
            please God.

            God commands us to believe in Christ. He is pleased by those who
            choose Christ. If unregenerate people could choose Christ, then they
            could be subject to at least one of God’s commands and they could at
            least do something that is pleasing to God. If that is so, then the
            apostle has erred here in insisting that those who are in the flesh can
            neither be subject to God nor please him.

            We conclude that fallen man is still free to choose what he desires,
            but because his desires are only wicked he lacks the moral ability to
            come to Christ. As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he
            will never choose Christ. He cannot choose Christ precisely because he
            cannot act against his own will. He has no desire for Christ. He cannot
            choose what he does not desire. His fall is great. It is so great that
            only the effectual grace of God working in his heart can bring him
            to faith.

          • musefortune

            Calvinists like to use the scripture Romans 3:11 (no one seeks God) to defend their doctrine of predestination. And I believe that, and realize that without the death of Christ on the cross, we had no chance. Sin had a chokehold on us, and there was no escape. But now that Jesus has made a way, because he is ‘the way’, we are free to turn to the Lord. It is our choice. No one can make it for us. And our Lord will not force us. Undoubtedly, the Holy Spirit does work with in our hearts to draw us, but unfortunately, there are those who will say no. Which is why no one will have an excuse in the end. Why would the Lord say that all nature declares His existence, if everyone is pre-selected anyway? What difference does it make? Their argument doesn’t even make logical sense to me. And if you really want to boil it down, how do THEY know THEY are selected? (Sounds a little arrogant to me, if that’s really how it works!)
            To sum up, this is why it’s important to decipher the Word of God as a whole, and not just pull out Scriptures here and there to defend our petty doctrines. I wasn’t going to comment anymore on this thread because I found it frustrating and pointless. But JD, reading your responses have been a breath of fresh air. Thank you for this.

          • thehawkfam8889

            My friend. You are taking scripture out of context. Your problem is your using the words ALL and WORLD in a context of this century versus what it would mean to the authors and the Jewish people and to whom they are speaking. Isaiah teaches precept upon precept. You are taking verses only and looking down with what you feel ALL/WORLD means without looking at the Bible as a whole or what each author meant as a whole.

            3:16 God so loved the world. Some have insisted that God sent Jesus to die in order to make salvation possible for everyone without exception. However, Jesus makes clear that the salvation of those whom the Father gives Him is not a mere possibility but an absolute certainty. All of those whom God has chosen will come to Christ, who has laid down His life only for His sheep and not for those who have not been chosen from the foundation of the world (6:37–40; 10:14–18; 17:9). The point made by “the world” is that Christ’s saving work is not limited to one time or place or people (the Jews), but applies to the elect from all over the world no matter the era in which they live or their ethnicity. Moreover, in John, “the world” often opposes God (1:10; 7:7; 14:17; 15:18, 19), so the wonder of God’s love is displayed in the unworthiness of its object. Those who do not receive the remedy God has provided in Christ will perish. It remains true that anyone who believes in Christ will not die (be separated from God) but live in God’s presence forever.

            2:2 propitiation. A sacrifice to God meant to take away the enmity brought by sin between God and the worshiper. Only Christ can be an effective propitiation (cf. Rom. 3:21–26).

            2 cor 5:15-one has died for all. The ones for whom He died are the same as the “all” who “died” with Him as a result of His death, who are mentioned at the end of the verse (cf. Gal. 2:20). Jesus died to secure redemption and eternal life for all of His sheep, but not all people are His sheep (John 10:15, 26–28).

            5:18, 19 Paul returns to the main thrust of his analogy, namely, that there is a parallel between Adam and Christ in that condemnation and justification are the direct fruits of their actions. On the basis of the actions of “one,” “many” are constituted either sinners or righteous. Adam is the representative head of all people, Christ excepted, and all sinned and fell when he sinned. In contrast, “by the one man’s obedience,” those whom Christ represents are “made righteous” in Him. Christ is their representative Head, as well as the spiritual root of the new humanity, for through His resurrection they are given new birth and a living hope (1 Pet. 1:3; Eph. 2:1–7).

          • JD

            “All” meant the same thing back then as it does now. There’s no secret meaning to “all” and “every” and the “whole world”.
            As I mentioned before, if your doctrines are correct you will not have to explain away the word of God.

          • thehawkfam8889

            “Whole world” was never used. World in John 3:16 context is Jew and Gentile because when speaking to the Jew the world was Jew and Gentile. You are taking scripture out of context and I provided that above.

          • thehawkfam8889

            But what about “world”? Doesn’t
            world mean every single man, woman and child who ever has lived or over will live?

            As we have already seen from the Old Testament scriptures, this is not the case. The Greek word translated “world” in John 3:16 is Kosmos.
            Strong’s Concordance of the Greek New Testament has this definition:
            Kosmos – orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants [Editor’s Emphasis], literally or figuratively [morally]):— adorning, world.

            It can be seen from Strong’s defintion that “world” can be interpreted in it’s wide sense (every single person) or narrow sense (limited number of persons).

            Therefore John 3:16 does not automatically mean every single person.

            Here are some definitive New Testament passages that show how world
            (kosmos) is often used in a narrow sense.

            John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how
            ye prevail nothing? behold, the world (kosmos) is gone after him.

            Did the entire “world” go after Christ? Would to God that they had but
            unfortunately we know this wasn’t the case then or now. World clearly does
            not mean every single person but rather the Pharisees were lamenting that large
            numbers of people had followed Christ then just as they do now. Indeed it
            is the “world” of believers who followed Christ and they are the ones God loved
            in John 3:16. God did not love them because they were believers but their
            belief is the evidence of God’s love for them.

            John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world (kosmos) cannot
            receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for
            he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

            If “world” always means every single
            person then Christ would have just said no-one can receive the Spirit of truth.
            And Christ would have also included the Apostles among those who could
            not receive the Spirit of truth. But it is evident that every single
            person is not meant for Christ goes on to say that the Apostles did know the
            Spirit of truth who dwelled in them. It is also evident that all believers
            receive the Spirit of truth therefore “world” does not mean every single person.

            Ro 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that
            your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world (kosmos).

            When Paul wrote this epistle, did the natives of North and South America know
            of the faith of the church at Rome? What about many other people in the
            furthest places on earth? Did they know about the Roman Church’s faith in
            Christ at that time? Paul is using “world” as a figure of speech to
            indicate that the faith of the Roman Church was known in a great many places by
            a great many people but not that every single person of earth knew about their
            faith.

            Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world
            (kosmos), what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
            Romans 11:1-32

            The “casting away of them” is referring to the the nation of Israel.
            The “reconciling of the world” is referring to the Gentiles. But if
            “world” always means every single person then Paul’s statement makes no sense
            for he would have just said that God had cast away people that He reconciled.
            Thus, “world” here, as in other places, doesn’t mean every single person.

            This is not to say that there are no scriptures where “world” means everyone,
            because there are. The point is “world” doesn’t always mean everyone and
            it is clear from the context of John 3:16 and other scriptures of the Old and
            New Testament such as Romans 9:13
            , where Paul quotes Malachi 1:3, that God’s
            love does not extend to every single person.

            Of course some will say it is
            not fair for God not to extend His love to everyone, which argument Paul goes on
            to rebut in Romans 9:14-24.
            In fact if any person ever truly sees how awful and offensive and disgusting his
            sins are before a Holy God, he will be led to ask, “Why does God love anybody?”
            But thanks be to God that he did love some and those of us who believe in Christ
            can praise Him because He “hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
            not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which
            was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” 2 Timothy 1:9.
            Hallelujah!

          • JD

            Yes “whole world” was used. I have taken absolutely nothing out of context. There’s no contextual evidence at all that all the verses I quoted mean something different than they are actually saying.
            1 John 2:2
            And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

          • thehawkfam8889

            You are assuming Whole world as every single individual which is not the case. Your view of whole world, world, and all is not consistent with scripture. Sometimes it does mean every individual but you won’t know if you don’t look at the context.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Okay let’s go into this again. Watch how I don’t just list one verse and assume it’s meaning. I go onto list others versus that agree with the context.

            2:2 propitiation. A sacrifice to God meant to take away the enmity brought by sin between God and the worshiper. Only Christ can be an effective propitiation (cf. Rom. 3:21–26).

            of the whole world. Christ’s sacrifice is not only sufficient for John and his immediate community, but it is valid anywhere in the world for those who believe. It is a sacrifice that requires no addition or supplement. This verse does not mean that the Lord intended the atonement to pay for the sins of all people without exception; rather, it affirms that there is only one sacrifice available for any sinner, namely, the sacrifice of Christ. This sacrifice is effectual for all who believe, but the only ones who will believe are those chosen by God for salvation from the foundation of the world, and Jesus made atonement only for this elect people (John 10:11; Eph. 1:3–6

          • JD

            Go back and watch how I never listed one verse but many that agree. You are the only one going to great lengths to say the Bible does not mean what it says. You refuse to let the scripture speak for itself, instead you attempt to explain its “real” meaning based on your own opinion.

            Any person without your doctrinal presuppositions would never believe the Bible does not mean all when it says all or that it doesn’t mean the sins of the whole world when it says the sins of the whole world or that doesn’t mean He wants all people to be saved when it says He wants all people to be saved or that doesn’t mean He wants every man to repent when it says He wants every man to repent.

          • thehawkfam8889

            You grabbed one single verse from each book. You did not post any versus to those versus to back up the meaning you ASSUME with scripture. You took individual versus from each book. I’m going to the lengths to show what the authors were saying letting them speak. Not having versus speak for themselves like you do. I also took the time to read what you posted and refute it. Which I’m curious if you have read anything I’ve posted or if your pride blinds you? I don’t base an opinion that is what you do when you use single versus you pick and choose and conform them to what you believe. I post the versus and comments and the versus that back up those comments which you have failed to do repeatedly. I never said All didn’t mean All I said all doesn’t mean every single individual every time it’s used which is evident to any honest person looking at the text. All has direct objects a lot of the time.I’m not saying it doesn’t mean sins of the whole world. The issue is your assumption Whole world means every single individual in the verse when it’s very clear that’s not what the author intended.

            If God wanted ALL People meaning every single individual to be saved they would because God is omnipotent unless you don’t believe that either?
            ALL PEOPLE doesn’t mean every single individual.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Whole world was never used in John 3:16. Was the issue. Not only are you twisting scripture to your tradition and how you feel you are twisting my words.

          • JD

            I never posted anything singularly about John 3:16. It was one scripture I mentioned among many. You took it out of context.

          • thehawkfam8889

            If you think the world in John 3:16 means every single individual you took it out of context. I have provided more than enough scriptural evidence for this. You can honestly see below if you have any integrity that world doesn’t always mean every single individual. So what makes you the authority to say the word World in John 3:16 does if other places in John it doesn’t mean every single individual? John 3 doesn’t start at John 3:16 It start at verse 1 to get the context which I have already posted in another comment.

            But what about “world”? Doesn’t
            world mean every single man, woman and child who ever has lived or over will
            live? As we have already seen from the Old Testament scriptures, this
            is not the case. The Greek word translated “world” in John 3:16 is Kosmos.
            Strong’s Concordance of the Greek New Testament has this definition:

            Kosmos – orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the
            world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants [Editor’s
            Emphasis], literally or figuratively [morally]):— adorning, world.

            It can be seen from Strong’s defintion that “world” can be interpreted in
            it’s wide sense (every single person) or narrow sense (limited number of
            persons). Therefore John 3:16 does not automatically mean every single
            person. Here are some definitive New Testament passages that show how world
            (kosmos) is often used in a narrow sense.

            John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how
            ye prevail nothing? behold, the world (kosmos) is gone after him.

            Did the entire “world” go after Christ? Would to God that they had but
            unfortunately we know this wasn’t the case then or now. World clearly does
            not mean every single person but rather the Pharisees were lamenting that large
            numbers of people had followed Christ then just as they do now. Indeed it
            is the “world” of believers who followed Christ and they are the ones God loved
            in John 3:16. God did not love them because they were believers but their
            belief is the evidence of God’s love for them.

            John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world (kosmos) cannot
            receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for
            he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

            If “world” always means every single
            person then Christ would have just said no-one can receive the Spirit of truth.
            And Christ would have also included the Apostles among those who could
            not receive the Spirit of truth. But it is evident that every single
            person is not meant for Christ goes on to say that the Apostles did know the
            Spirit of truth who dwelled in them. It is also evident that all believers
            receive the Spirit of truth therefore “world” does not mean every single person.

            Ro 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that
            your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world (kosmos).

            When Paul wrote this epistle, did the natives of North and South America know
            of the faith of the church at Rome? What about many other people in the
            furthest places on earth? Did they know about the Roman Church’s faith in
            Christ at that time? Paul is using “world” as a figure of speech to
            indicate that the faith of the Roman Church was known in a great many places by
            a great many people but not that every single person of earth knew about their
            faith.

            Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world
            (kosmos), what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
            Romans 11:1-32

            The “casting away of them” is referring to the the nation of Israel.
            The “reconciling of the world” is referring to the Gentiles. But if
            “world” always means every single person then Paul’s statement makes no sense
            for he would have just said that God had cast away people that He reconciled.
            Thus, “world” here, as in other places, doesn’t mean every single person.

            This is not to say that there are no scriptures where “world” means everyone,
            because there are. The point is “world” doesn’t always mean everyone and
            it is clear from the context of John 3:16 and other scriptures of the Old and
            New Testament such as Romans 9:13
            , where Paul quotes Malachi 1:3, that God’s
            love does not extend to every single person.

            Of course some will say it is
            not fair for God not to extend His love to everyone, which argument Paul goes on
            to rebut in Romans 9:14-24.
            In fact if any person ever truly sees how awful and offensive and disgusting his
            sins are before a Holy God, he will be led to ask, “Why does God love anybody?”
            But thanks be to God that he did love some and those of us who believe in Christ
            can praise Him because He “hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
            not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which
            was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” 2 Timothy 1:9.
            Hallelujah!

          • thehawkfam8889

            Here how you can see if your being honest world does not always mean every single individual that’s why we look at the context and the scripture as a whole. Versus making an assumption.

            But what about “world”? Doesn’t
            world mean every single man, woman and child who ever has lived or over will live?

            As
            we have already seen from the Old Testament scriptures, this is not the
            case. The Greek word translated “world” in John 3:16 is Kosmos.
            Strong’s Concordance of the Greek New Testament has this definition:
            Kosmos
            – orderly arrangement, i.e. decoration; by implication, the world (in a
            wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants [Editor’s Emphasis],
            literally or figuratively [morally]):— adorning, world.

            It can be
            seen from Strong’s defintion that “world” can be interpreted in it’s
            wide sense (every single person) or narrow sense (limited number of
            persons).

            Therefore John 3:16 does not automatically mean every single person.

            Here are some definitive New Testament passages that show how world
            (kosmos) is often used in a narrow sense.

            John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye
            how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world (kosmos) is gone after him.

            Did
            the entire “world” go after Christ? Would to God that they had but
            unfortunately we know this wasn’t the case then or now. World clearly
            does
            not mean every single person but rather the Pharisees were
            lamenting that large numbers of people had followed Christ then just as
            they do now. Indeed it
            is the “world” of believers who followed Christ and they are the ones God loved
            in John 3:16. God did not love them because they were believers but their belief is the evidence of God’s love for them.

            John
            14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world (kosmos) cannot receive,
            because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he
            dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
            If “world” always means every single
            person
            then Christ would have just said no-one can receive the Spirit of
            truth. And Christ would have also included the Apostles among those who
            could not receive the Spirit of truth.
            But it is evident that every single person is not meant for Christ goes on to say that the Apostles did know the
            Spirit
            of truth who dwelled in them. It is also evident that all believers
            receive the Spirit of truth therefore “world” does not mean every single
            person.

            Ro 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for
            you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world
            (kosmos).
            When Paul wrote this epistle, did the natives of North and
            South America know of the faith of the church at Rome? What about many
            other people in the furthest places on earth?
            Did they know about the Roman Church’s faith in
            Christ
            at that time? Paul is using “world” as a figure of speech to indicate
            that the faith of the Roman Church was known in a great many places by a
            great many people but not that every single person of earth knew about
            their
            faith.

            Ro 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the
            reconciling of the world (kosmos), what shall the receiving of them be,
            but life from the dead?
            Romans 11:1-32
            The “casting away of
            them” is referring to the the nation of Israel. The “reconciling of the
            world” is referring to the Gentiles. But if “world” always means every
            single person then Paul’s statement makes no sense

            for he would
            have just said that God had cast away people that He reconciled. Thus,
            “world” here, as in other places, doesn’t mean every single person.

            This
            is not to say that there are no scriptures where “world” means
            everyone, because there are. The point is “world” doesn’t always mean
            everyone and
            it is clear from the context of John 3:16 and other scriptures of the Old and New Testament such as Romans 9:13
            ,where Paul quotes Malachi 1:3, that God’s
            love does not extend to every single person.

            Of course some will say it is
            not fair for God not to extend His love to everyone, which argument Paul goes on to rebut in Romans 9:14-24.
            In fact if any person ever truly sees how awful and offensive and disgusting his
            sins are before a Holy God, he will be led to ask, “Why does God love anybody?”
            But thanks be to God that he did love some and those of us who believe in Christ
            can praise Him because He “hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
            not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which
            was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” 2 Timothy 1:9.
            Hallelujah!

          • JD

            So the Word says he is the propitiation for our sins, not ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. Your argument is to pull scriptures out where world is used as a figure of speech?

            The only verse you mention that actually has the same phrase “whole world” is Romans 1 8. In that verse he did mean the whole world or he would not have said so. It was not a figure of speech. The argument could be made that there was a part of the world he did not know about yet. That argument would not refute what he meant by whole world and neither would it refute what first John meant by whole world. 1st John is clearly a doctrinal statement that Jesus is not only the propitiation for our sins but for the sins of every single person in the world. It agrees very clearly with several other important scriptures I already mentioned which also explains Romans 11:15 which you mentioned.

            2 Corinthians 5:15 (KJV)
            15 And that he died for ALL, that they which live SHOULD not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

            Romans 5:18 (KJV)
            18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

            So yes the casting away of natural Israel brought salvation to the entire world, to every man, woman and child.

            Romans teaches that we were reconciled to God through the death of his son while we were still the enemies of God. Every man has been reconciled by the death of Jesus Christ but they now must choose Life in him. Sin is no longer an obstacle keeping them from the Tree of Life. Every person who has ever lived or ever will lived has already had their sins paid for! That that is the amazing gospel! When I go into the world I tell them their sins are forgiven. Then I tell them to eat from the Tree of Life and be saved for eternity.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Paul wrote Romans and Corinthians. No serious and honest handler of the tex would say Paul would agree with you saying he is using ALL to mean every single individual. He is writing to the Romans and the Corinthians. What you don’t realize and still fail to realize after everything. Is that your few versus you took from paul to back you up. There are a ton more against your argument and that contradict you. So how do you handle those? By pure rejection. You can’t make the rest of his books or the rest of the versus in Romans work with your view. I’m sorry you can’t do it. I on the other hand can give a consistent Biblical message with the ENTIRETY of the Bible. My friend the hoops you go through to try and make this work is astonishing. Until you can go back and deal with the 20 something texts I’ve given you against your few text and make them not contradict your view there is no point in continuing this conversation because you obviously don’t care to be honest about it or take it serious.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Once again deal with these texts in light of your view. I have no problem standing corrected. I just know you can’t make these texts work with your view. You leave a contradictory message. My main area of study – The Four Canonical Gospels, Romans and Corinthians. In John especially even to go as in depth as to look at the oldest manuscript we have called p-52.

            John 6:39

            Jeremiah 23:4

            John 6:37

            John 6:44

            Romans 8:30

            Romans 8:28

            Romans 11:29

            1 Corinthians 1:9

            1 Corinthians 6:11

            Ps 65:4

            Prov 16:4

            Mt 24:31

            Mt 24:31

            Acts 15:17-18

            Romans 9:11

            Rom 11:2

            Romans 11:5-7

            1 Cor 2:7

            Ephesians 1:5,11

            1 Thes 1:4

            2 Thes 2:13

            Titus 1:1

            1 Peter 1:2

            Rev 13:8

          • thehawkfam8889

            Also you have still failed to deal with this and the versus backing it up for 2 cor 5:15

            2 cor 5:14 the love of Christ controls us. Grammatically, this could be the love we have for Christ or the love Christ has for us. Since Paul is speaking of what Christ has done for him by dying in his place, his primary reference is to the love that comes from Christ. However, Christ’s initiating love evokes our love for Christ and others (1 John 4:7–11), and thus it “controls” our desires and relationships with others, enabling us more and more to love our brothers and sisters in Christ (Eph. 5:2; 1 John 4:7–12).

            2 cor 5:15 one has died for all. The ones for whom He died are the same as the “all” who “died” with Him as a result of His death, who are mentioned at the end of the verse (cf. Gal. 2:20). Jesus died to secure redemption and eternal life for all of His sheep, but not all people are His sheep (John 10:15, 26–28)

            Also Deal with this and the versus therein.

            5:18, 19 Paul returns to the main thrust of his analogy, namely, that there is a parallel between Adam and Christ in that condemnation and justification are the direct fruits of their actions. On the basis of the actions of “one,” “many” are constituted either sinners or righteous. Adam is the representative head of all people, Christ excepted, and all sinned and fell when he sinned. In contrast, “by the one man’s obedience,” those whom Christ represents are “made righteous” in Him. Christ is their representative Head, as well as the spiritual root of the new humanity, for through His resurrection they are given new birth and a living hope (1 Pet. 1:3; Eph. 2:1–7).

          • thehawkfam8889

            Someone like you would take John 32 (And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.)

            You would take this and say oh yea ALL PEOPLE every single individual and miss the context even while knowing he doesn’t draw every single individual so you would ignore it and not deal with it like the other 20 something versus you have failed to deal with. (which by the way I have dealt consistently with all of yours and the audience can see this.

            As far as John 32

            12:32 lifted up. This refers to the crucifixion (v. 33), but also to the glorification of Christ. As Mediator, He will be “lifted up” to the right hand of God (3:14 note).

            will draw all people. The cross exerts a universal attraction, and people of all nationalities, Gentiles as well as Jews, will be saved through it. “All” means all kinds of people without distinction—i.e., rich and poor, Jew and Gentile, not all members of the human race without exception

            Have you also not yet understood the context of John 3? Starting in verse 1 going up to 16? Not plainly seeing the world to the Jew was Jew and Gentile. You are still making John 3:16 out to be an opportunity for every individual or a condition to be met. You try to make it say “whoever shall believe” When it actually says “Whoever believes.” Like I said there are more versus against you and that contradict you that you cannot make work because they were never meant to. What I say is true and will be shown by you failing to deal with all the texts I’ve provided that contradict what you have been saying this whole time. In-case you have missed this which I feel you have since you still haven’t responded. Here you go again.

            John 6:39

            Jeremiah 23:4

            John 6:37

            John 6:44

            Romans 8:30

            Romans 8:28

            Romans 11:29

            1 Corinthians 1:9

            1 Corinthians 6:11

            Ps 65:4

            Prov 16:4

            Mt 24:31

            Mt 24:31

            Acts 15:17-18

            Romans 9:11

            Rom 11:2

            Romans 11:5-7

            1 Cor 2:7

            Ephesians 1:5,11

            1 Thes 1:4

            2 Thes 2:13

            Titus 1:1

            1 Peter 1:2

            Rev 13:8

          • thehawkfam8889

            What I’m saying is when you see the word ALL you automatically say every single person or individual.Which is not the case. Just like I have pointed out World doesn’t always mean every single individual. Sometimes it does depending on the context. your biggest issue is context. I also notice I provide tons of scripture and consistency to refute what you are taking out of context.

          • JD

            You have not provided anything to refute any of the scriptures I listed. You’re simply choosing the ones you can more easily twist.

            Thankfully there are many scriptures in many different places that say the same thing the same way. There is just no way you can explain it all the way but good try.

            .John 3:16 (KJV)
            16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSEVER believeth in him SHOULD not perish, but have everlasting life.

            Romans 11:32 (NKJV)
            32 For God has committed them ALL to disobedience, that He might have mercy on ALL. (God has turned ALL over to bondage so that He may have mercy on them ALL)

            1 John 2:2 (KJV)
            2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, BUT ALSO for the sins of the whole world.

            2 Corinthians 5:15 (KJV)
            15 And that he died for ALL, that they which live SHOULD not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (Notice it says “should” just like John 3:16. The fact that Jesus died for all men and that all men SHOULD turn to Him and be saved, does not mean that they will. He knew who would and who would not. According that foreknowledge, He knows who is His and who is not.)

            Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
            18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.
            19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

          • thehawkfam8889

            I have twisted nothing I have provided precept upon precept and verse upon verse you have not and that’s evident to anyone viewing this. You lit once verse at a time and try and twist them together. I go into the context starting with earlier versus which is proper exegesis and then list more versus that back it up. You my friend do not.

          • JD

            Lol, you use the verse precept upon precept as if it’s a positive thing. You don’t even know that scripture is talking about the giving of the law to cause them to stumble and fall. His word became precept upon precept because they would not and could not walk in His grace and rest. Since you like to mention context you might want to go back and study the context of that portion of scripture. While presenting yourself as an expert, your ignorance is glaring.

            And as for trying to explain away the meaning of “whole world,” the scripture itself says what it means when it says “not ours only”. When he said “ours” he was clearly referring to the believers who had already received the propitiation. Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, not ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

            Yes anyone reading this without twisted presuppositions should have enough intelligence to see what the Bible actually says. That’s the only reason I’m posting.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Once again in your attempt to mock me. My friend you are the one who doesn’t understand but I will help you.

            Q. Isaiah 28:9&10 says line upon line precept
            upon precept” this is not only repeated in the same verse, but also in
            verse 13, I have always found that when something is repeated that many
            times it must be important. Could you please explain these verses to me?

            A. The Church has traditionally used this verse as
            an admonition against taking verses out of context. The idea is that by
            taking line upon line and precept upon precept, it’s easier to
            understand what a passage is really trying to teach us. When we fail to
            do this we can wind up “misquoting” God making His word say something
            other than what He intended. It’s also used to encourage us to study all
            of His word, not just our favorite parts.

            It’s good advice, but the passage is really God’s sarcastic
            indictment against Israel’s leaders for turning His word into a list of
            rules, repeated endlessly to the people as if they were little children,
            barely able to understand. (In Hebrew the passage reads, “Sav lasav,
            sav lasav, kav lakav, kav lakav, like a child’s rhyme.)

            Instead of teaching them that He intended for their land to be a
            place of rest for the weary, the leaders had taught the people to live
            in fear of breaking His rules. In verse 13 He tells them, in effect,
            that since they’ve done this to His people, He’s going to bring the
            Assyrians to do it to them. Shortly thereafter the Assyrians over ran
            the Northern Kingdom and dispersed the leaders.

            So I guess you could say that, however well-intended, the Church broke it’s own rule. We took the passage out of context.

          • JD

            Disagreements aside, praise God the Holy Spirit showed you what that scripture is actually saying. I heard it taken out of context my entire life.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Now if only He could show you how you are contradicting the rest of John, Romans, and Corinthians we would be in good shape. Claiming you believe God is omnipotent but limiting his power as to say he can’t truly save those he want’s to save and only offers and opportunity leaving the cross in vain and also going against the Bible as a whole. Truly I say to you if you don’t believe God CAN save those whom He desires to save then you DO NOT believe He is all powerful.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Even though you laugh at me and called me ignorant which are not fruits of the spirit. You fail to admit where you are wrong. I will tell you I didn’t understand Isaiah 28:10 and before and I was wrong in this context. I also never spend time in Isaiah. People for a long time have misunderstood this that’s why I posted that link. A view of previous versus to understand the context was needed. I wish everyone was willing to be corrected and admit they were wrong. Just like John 3:16 is the most well known and most distorted verse. People do with it like I did to Isaiah 28:10 and even when corrected and given the context and multiple scriptural evidence refuse and reject it. Just like you and many others with John 3:16 If you start with the first verse of John 3 and read down to John 3:16 you get the context and realize what he is saying to Nicodemus versus going directly to verse 16 and assuming world means every single individual.

            Now that I have came back to say I was wrong on the context of Isaiah 28:10 I will not be returning. Like I’ve said I have provided a refutation on the assumption that Christ died for every single individual. To think other wise you would have to completely reject versus.

            John 6:39

            Jeremiah 23:4

            John 6:37

            John 6:44

            Romans 8:30

            Romans 8:28

            Romans 11:29

            1 Corinthians 1:9

            1 Corinthians 6:11

            Ps 65:4

            Prov 16:4

            Mt 24:31

            Mt 24:31

            Acts 15:17-18

            Romans 9:11

            Rom 11:2

            Romans 11:5-7

            1 Cor 2:7

            Ephesians 1:5,11

            1 Thes 1:4

            2 Thes 2:13

            Titus 1:1

            1 Peter 1:2

            Rev 13:8

            Your reasoning with He died for every single individual DOES contradict all these versus. That should be a red flag. Do you then just reject these versus? Write them off? I reject no verse because in the proper context the bible will not contradict itself. The Bible interweaves is harmonious and is beautiful. Now I am finished here.

          • JD

            I apologize for using the word ignorance. I’ve become comfortable with it meaning lack of knowledge and I should not have used it. It didn’t sound good.

            John 3:16 is very easy to twist for any side. I have no doubt when it says whosoever it means any person who will. Obviously you don’t believe that. I’d rather stick to the more obvious verses that very specifically deal with this subject. I’ll go back and review your “whole world” refutation and comment on it when I get a chance. That is one of the most clear scriptures that there is though there are many others. From what I read your attempt to explain it away is very weak. I also gladly look at the scriptures you copied and pasted from your comrades sites. When the Bible is believed for what it says and means it all agrees and there is no need for eisegesis.

            The reason the whosoever of John 3:16 is important is because it agrees with every other scripture concerning salvation.

          • thehawkfam8889

            John 3:16 is not easy to twist I feel it has an easy plain meaning that is coherent with the rest the the Gospel. It has a context starting in verse 1. Whosoever believes means just what it says. Whosoever believes will not perish. You won’t believe if you are unregenerate and not one of His sheep and if He hasn’t drawn you near which is exactly what the text tells us. It doe not state whosoever will or shall. You my friend are adding to the text to make it work for you. I am letting the text speak for itself and what I have given you is the consistent non contradictory message. Unregenerate man Cannot choose God.

          • musefortune

            It’s a shame that John Calvin was ever born. What error he brought into the world. Without his writings, I have a hard time believing so many people would’ve come to this conclusion after reading God’s word. The doctrine of predestination is as OFF as the doctrine of universalism. And those who are responsible for teaching this, and causing many to stumble, will answer to God for it. God designed the universe in such a way that we are free to accept or reject him. We are free to love him or hate him. What makes it beautiful when someone loves us? Think. It’s beautiful because they CHOOSE to love us!! How arrogant to think that we know God. I would rather err on the side of giving him the benefit of the doubt, then cramming him in to your little doctrinal box.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Once again assumption I something I continue to see. I know of John Calvin. I have heard about 5 points. I neither know them nor care. What I do care about is the truth and consistency of the scripture and it being used in proper context which some people are failing to have the integrity to do so since they would have to admit being wrong. All you have posted is purely based on emotion and not scripture.
            I don’t need Calvin or Erasmus(which by the way is your view if you want to point out views)
            To tell me the scriptures.
            The scriptures are consistent and God breathed. They cannot be broken. God is not the author of confusion. We have a consistent text and that is what I’m presenting. I fail to see you or JD doing the same. I do see mockery, and laughing though. I see arrogance and pride. For you to say it is a shame someone was born is concerning. Like others have mentioned. It will take God to lead you to the truth. You and JD will be added to my prayers. What I have seen today is troubling and concerning behavior for those who call themselves Christians.

          • JD

            When someone begins to lose a debate they always attack the character of the person they’re debating. You’re showing your argument’s weakness by taking one simple statement that I said about you revealing your ignorance and making it an attack on my character. If you want to talk about fruit, the fruit of every calvinist / reformist that I’ve ever met is pride and self-righteousness. I’m sure there are some that are not like that but for the most part that’s the fruit that comes out of that camp. It would do you good not to go to a fruit argument.

            Perhaps I responded a little too personally after your bold statements declaring “my error” and “my problem”. You approached me as an ignorant person. I apologize for returning the sentiment 🙂

          • musefortune

            Well said. Exactly how I felt, only stated much more eloquently.

          • thehawkfam8889

            My friend I have lost no debate. I have not used words against you. You are in error and fail to bring a consistent argument or deal with the many many many versus that argue against what you are saying. until you do so you have won nothing.

          • JD

            Amen to that. I do believe everything has its purpose though even Satan. I’m sure there is a reason for John Calvin. The word of God said there must be disagreements among us so that God can show who he approves of. Show me any calvinist ministering with true power. Show me any reformist who has seen any miracles in their ministry or has cast out demons. You won’t find any because they are the ones who are always speaking out against anything the Holy Spirit does in the Earth. They have a form of godliness but they deny the power that’s supposed to go with it.

            I am glad he had a chance to live but if he could come back I’m sure he would preach as loud as he could, to every person he could, that his ideas were the philosophies of man and that God is not the monster he made him out to be. He would boldly declare the gospel that Jesus Christ died for every man, woman and child and whosoever will believe in Him will be saved. He would tell every enemy of God that they have already been reconciled to God by the death of His Son and now they have an opportunity to live through His life. He would tell them to choose Life and not death :-).

          • thehawkfam8889

            Is she your G/F? Do you troll together? Now I see I have wasted time. Anyone who could agree and back the things muse has been saying has just lost all credibility. Especially since you still fail to interact. Moving on.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Let’s look at John 3:1-16

            First we must understand the context of this scripture. Beginning in verse
            1, Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, came to speak with Jesus and acknowledge that
            He (Christ) must have been sent from God. Otherwise He could not have
            performed great miracles. Jesus begins to challenge Nicodemus’s
            understanding of doctrine by explaining the New Birth to him.
            John 3:3-8

            The reason Jesus describes this spiritual awakening as a birth is to illustrate
            that just as no-one controls the time, place or circumstances of their natural
            birth, neither do we control the time, place or circumstances of our spiritual
            birth. Furthermore, natural birth happens to us without our awareness
            until after the event, likewise spiritual birth happens to us without our
            awareness till after the event.

            Then, Jesus uses an illustration in verse 8 to further demonstrate that the New
            Birth comes by a sovereign work of God.

            The wind bloweth where it listeth,
            and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and
            whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

            Just as no-one controls the time of their natural birth, neither does anyone
            control the wind. No-one can tell the wind when, where, how or why to
            blow, neither can anyone tell the Holy Spirit when, where, how or why to cause
            someone to be Born Again. These are sovereign actions of God. By
            sovereign we mean that God needs no permission to choose where, when or why to
            act. He simply does it according to His own will apart from the will or desire of any of His creation.

            The reason for the need of the New Birth is
            no-one can see the Kingdom of God without it and no one can enter the Kingdom of God without it.
            John 3:3, 5

            In other words, until a person is Born Again, they can not have saving faith in
            Jesus Christ neither can they enter in to heaven when they die.

            Having explained the New Birth to Nicodemus, Nicodemus responds in verse 9 by saying:
            How can these things be?

            To which Christ responds:

            Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
            John 3:9-10

            This is an important point in the discussion between Christ and Nicodemus.
            Christ wasn’t necessarily saying that Nicodemus was not Born Again but rather He
            is challenging Nicodemus’ Jewish understanding of doctrine. And in verse
            16, Christ is going to reveal more doctrine that directly contradicted the
            Jewish understanding of God’s love for mankind. According to Jewish
            doctrine, God only loved Jews and no-one but Jews. As far as the Jews were
            concerned God hated everyone else, everyone else being all the rest of the world
            called the gentiles.

            It is certainly easy to see why they would believe this.
            In the Old Testament God never proclaimed His love for anyone accept the
            patriarchs, their families and their descendants the nation of Israel. All
            the other nations of the world were suffered to walk in their sins ultimately
            receiving their just condemnation which is ample evidence that God did not love
            the other nations of the earth.

            Consider these Old Testament scriptures.

            Pr 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

            17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

            18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

            19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

            We see that God not only hates the wicked actions of men but He hates those
            who shed innocent blood, those who devise wicked imaginations, those who run to
            mischief, those that speak lies and those who sow discord among the brethren.

            Furthermore in Malachi 1:2, God says, “I loved you” the Israelite nation and He loved Jacob but in verse 3 says:
            And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

            God Hated both Esau (Jacob’s brother) and his descendants (the Edomites).
            It’s little wonder that Nicodemus and the rest of the Jews thought God only
            loved Jews, for up to the time of Christ there had been very little from God indicating otherwise.

            Continuing Jesus and Nicodemus’ conversation, Jesus
            prophesies His death by crucifixion in verse 14:

            And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

            Next Christ presents, to a Jewish mind, one of his more astonishing doctrines by saying:

            That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

            Here Christ begins to reveal that simple belief in Him was the way to eternal
            life. This was a great contradiction to the Jewish understanding of
            eternal life for they thought one must become a Jew and keep the law to have
            eternal life. But Christ is connecting belief in His crucifixion and
            ultimately His resurrection with eternal life not Judaism. Notice also the
            scripture does not say, “whosoever
            believeth in him should not perish but get eternal life.” That
            would make eternal life a condition to be met. Christ says whosoever believes has
            eternal life. In other words it is a statement of fact that those who
            believe, already have life. This explains the need for Christ’s
            teaching about the New Birth in the proceeding verses. You must be Born
            Again before you can believe. You do not believe to get Born Again, as
            taught by nearly all modern churches.

            And finally Christ presents, in this
            dialog, His most astonishing doctrine of all
            (at least to a Jewish mind) by saying God not only loves Jews but He also loves Gentiles.

            For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
            whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
            John 3:16

            Christ was not teaching Nicodemus that God loves all of mankind without
            exception. Rather
            he was teaching that God loves both Jews and Gentiles. In other words
            God’s love is without distinction, it is not based on race or any other factor
            such as age, gender, ancestry, skin color or income etc. At this point in
            history, Christ has just made a stunning revelation and one that will have a
            world wide impact as the love of God reaches all over the world. But it
            needs to be pointed out, again, that Christ did not say, “whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but get everlasting life.”
            Instead it is, “have everlasting life”, which is a statement of fact not
            a condition to be met.

        • JD

          So a child of the devil saying yes to Jesus and becoming a child of God is demonic and teaching that God created many people with the sole intention of sending them to Hell, who He will give no chance to be saved, in order to demonstrate His wrath and justice is not??? Okay buddy whatever you say.

      • thehawkfam8889

        By what anyone has said in these comments where do you get calling anyone an extreme Calvinist. I have provided a refutation in the comments below. Instead of getting caught up in labels, let’s get caught up in the truth of the scripture. Let’s stop putting a 21 century context or what we feel ALL/WORLD means. Shouldn’t we let the scriptures speak? Shouldn’t we let the authors speak? Shouldn’t we understand what ALL meant in it’s context or what the word WORLD meant in context in John 3:16 which mean’s Jews and Gentiles. To the Jews the world was Jew and gentile. Saying every single individual is taking it out of context my friend.

        • JD

          Yes, let’s let the scriptures speak for themselves.

          John 3:16 (KJV)
          16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSEVER believeth in him SHOULD not perish, but have everlasting life.

          Romans 11:32 (NKJV)
          32 For God has committed them ALL to disobedience, that He might have mercy on ALL. (God has turned ALL over to bondage so that He may have mercy on them ALL)

          1 John 2:2 (KJV)
          2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, BUT ALSO for the sins of the whole world.

          2 Corinthians 5:15 (KJV)
          15 And that he died for ALL, that they which live SHOULD not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (Notice it says “should” just like John 3:16. The fact that Jesus died for all men and that all men SHOULD turn to Him and be saved, does not mean that they will. He knew who would and who would not. According that foreknowledge, He knows who is His and who is not.)

          Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
          18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon ALL men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of life.
          19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

          • thehawkfam8889

            You are not letting them speak because you are going directly to versus without looking at the previous versus that define the context. I have already offered a full refutation on your view of John 3:16.

          • thehawkfam8889

            This is not an example of letting scripture speak for itself. This is an example singling out versus and letting them speak for you. I will post this consistent refutation and it will be the last.
            (For one John 3:16 says whosoever believeth not whosoever SHALL.)

            Romans 11:32 as you like to point out. Let’s look at the whole part not just one verse. Let’s actually look at what’s going on here. Not pick one verse and force it to affirm our belief.

            Rom 11:25–32 Paul’s close reasoning here has been understood in three major ways: (a) He is showing how God saves all of His elect people (“all Israel” in v. 26 being taken as basically synonymous with the church, that is, spiritual Israel, composed of the elect from every nation). (b) He is showing how God saves all the elect of (ethnic) Israel who are to be saved. (c) He is showing how God will, in the future, bring such widespread salvation to the Jewish people that, in an obvious general sense, it can be said that “all Israel will be saved” (v. 26). While not without difficulties, some form of this last view seems most likely for the following reasons. First, hints of it seem to appear already in vv. 11, 12, 15, 16, 24. Second, v. 25 suggests that an end to the partial hardening of Israel is in view. Third, “Israel” in v. 26 is not naturally interpreted as signifying a different entity from the Israel in view in vv. 1–24 and vv. 28–31, where national Israel (not spiritual Israel) is in view. Fourth, “mystery”—a matter known only through divine revelation—in v. 25 would seem inappropriate and exaggerated if Paul’s teaching were simply that all elect Jews will be saved. Finally, this view accords well with the quotations in vv. 26, 27 from Is. 59:20, 21; 27:9; Jer. 31:33, 34, which appear to speak of a comprehensive banishment of that sin that has been the cause of Israel’s alienation from God.

            Rom 11:25 mystery. In Paul, and in Jewish thought generally, a divine secret that has now been revealed (16:25, 26; Eph. 3:3–9). Some interpreters conclude that what immediately follows constitutes the mystery (probably the widespread conversion of the Jews). Others hold that the mystery is the pattern of God’s working in the Jew-Gentile interrelationship referred to in v. 11. The mystery may simply be the fact that, though it was evident that only a remnant of Israel would be saved in the latter days, it was not as clear according to OT prophecy that a majority of those saved would be Gentiles in comparison to only a remnant of saved Jews.

            fullness. The term may be taken to have a specifically numerical connotation. The ESV translates the same Gk. word as “full inclusion” in 11:12.

            has come in. An expression used infrequently by Paul, but commonly found in the Gospels to describe entrance into life or the kingdom of God (e.g., Mark 9:47).

            Rom 11:26 all Israel. A critical expression at this point in Paul’s argument, and one whose meaning is much debated. It could mean “all (spiritual) Israel,” that is, all elect persons, both Jew and Gentile. Alternately, it may mean “all” Israel in the sense of a remnant of “all Jews destined to be saved throughout history.” Or, as also noted above, it may point to a time when a mass conversion of ethnic Jews to Christ will occur. The use of the term “Israel” to refer to the biological descendants of the patriarchs throughout Paul’s discussion favors one of the last two interpretations. See note on 11:25–32, points (a), (b), and (c). The exegesis of “all Israel” will depend on the interpretation and weighing of other factors in the passage.

            The Deliverer will come from Zion. The quotation is from Ps. 14:7; Is. 27:9; 59:20, 21. Possibly Paul quotes this text in reference to the return of Christ from the heavenly Zion at the end of the age. Alternatively, it may refer to Christ’s first coming, when “ungodliness” was banished by Jesus from those Jews who believed in Him, at which time Christ executed the new “covenant” (likely referred to at the end of v. 27, “when I [God] take away their sins”). The latter view accords most with the book of Hebrews, which sees Jesus’ first coming to be the decisive time when He established the new covenant (e.g., Heb. 8:6–13; 10:1–16).

            Rom 11:29 the gifts … are irrevocable. The presence of a believing remnant in Paul’s day (including Paul himself) and the promise of God’s ingathering of many more Jews to faith in Jesus the Messiah show that God has not revoked His calling and gifts to His ancient covenant people (9:6; 11:1, 2).

            Rom 11:30 Paul’s argument concludes in a manner parallel to 3:19–21, stressing that Jew and Gentile are united in two things: the disobedience of sin, and the offer to them of the mercy of God. The wisdom and sovereignty of God’s grace are demonstrated in the way in which His purposes are fulfilled: the disobedience of the Jew leads to the Gentiles’ receiving God’s mercy; the mercy of God to the Gentiles leads to the reception of mercy by the Jews. There is no difference—all (Jew and Gentile alike) have sinned (3:23), and God has mercy on both (1:16).

            Rom 11:33–36 Having drawn together the various strands of his argument, Paul now responds in lyrical fashion with a song of praise that reaches heights that correspond to the depth of concern he sounded in 9:2, 3. God’s dealings with Jew and Gentile display a cross-section of His majesty in which His sovereign will (“from him”), His sovereign activity (“through him”) and His sovereign glory (“to him”) are richly displayed (v. 36)

            Once again you pick one verse 2 cor 5:15. When you don’t read what came before and have no understanding of what Paul is saying how can you think it possible to know what the single verse you pick out means? That’s not exegesis.

            2 cor 5:14 the love of Christ controls us. Grammatically, this could be the love we have for Christ or the love Christ has for us. Since Paul is speaking of what Christ has done for him by dying in his place, his primary reference is to the love that comes from Christ. However, Christ’s initiating love evokes our love for Christ and others (1 John 4:7–11), and thus it “controls” our desires and relationships with others, enabling us more and more to love our brothers and sisters in Christ (Eph. 5:2; 1 John 4:7–12).

            one has died for all. The ones for whom He died are the same as the “all” who “died” with Him as a result of His death, who are mentioned at the end of the verse (cf. Gal. 2:20). Jesus died to secure redemption and eternal life for all of His sheep, but not all people are His sheep (John 10:15, 26–28

            For the last one. Notice once again I don’t just pick one verse and leave it alone. I actually let Paul speak and show his other versus that affirm it. I let Paul speak I don’t speak for Paul.

            Rom 5:18 All this is from God. The whole plan of salvation and history of redemption culminating in an end-time new creation has its origin in and is centered upon God. Paul realizes that it is from Him, through Him, and for His glory (Rom. 11:36).

            Rom 5:19 not counting their trespasses against them. Objective human guilt in our violation of God’s commands has caused the alienation between sinners and their Creator. “Reconciliation” can occur only through the forgiveness of these trespasses, in which they are no longer imputed against the guilty (Rom. 4:6–8). Yet divine justice demands that sin be punished, and is satisfied by the imputation of our sin to Christ, the sinless one who bore the punishment that His people deserve on the cross (5:21).

            This my friend IS a refutation of you using the scriptures to speak for you versus letting them speak for themselves. Paul would disagree with your use of his verses. John would disagree with you also. We can know this by looking at ALL of Paul’s writings and ALL of what John wrote. Not just picking out a couple of versus and disregarding the rest of their writings and context.

    • Sean Hamburg

      And every thought and intention was tainted with original SIN. We needed a perfect and Holy Lamb of God to crash through every barrier to save us from being destroyed by original sin. original sin never chooses God ! He chose us and that “choice” meant that He initiated the work of the Holy Spirit in our heart to look toward Him in desperation to be saved. thank you, great stuff, all of GRACE !

      • JD

        I agree brother it is absolutely all of GRACE! There is no doubt about that one!

  • bill

    your an idiot

    • Stephen Garland

      I guess you haven’t answered your call yet.

      • Joan Krillig

        He merely increases his punishment. He will burn.

      • Tiffany

        lol.. I guess his call is to insult. I don’t recall that ever being a fruit of the spirit 😛

  • Dave BT

    That’s “You’re an idiot”, not “your an idiot”

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Maybe he meant that you possessed an idiot,
      or perhaps that you were possessed by an idiot.
      It’s difficult to decipher what illiterates are trying to convey.

      • David Pesta

        Bill was conveying ill will toward another person . You were conveying ill will toward Bill. Is your ill will more sanctified than Bill’s ill will just because you were more intellectually sophisticated with it?

        “Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” – John 13:35

        There might be a couple of Christians in these Internet forums. It’s hard to tell.

        • theGiantMidget 2000

          ooooh burn!!

          • David Pesta

            Sadly, you may be right about that, based on Matthew 5:22c. However, I would never wish that on anybody.

            I mean that with all sincerity.

          • theGiantMidget 2000

            Matthew 5 is talking about God’s standard for us as Christians compared to the old way of thinking (the OT law); Adultery vs Adultery of the heart (lust), murder vs murder of the heart (hatred). I don’t think that is referring to some random person on the internet making a random comment but instead having a true loathing for someone. That being said I do agree with you nobody needs to be calling anyone an idiot.

            BTW where do you stand on the whole sovereign grace vs free will thing.

          • David Pesta

            I do hope what you think is right. I pray genuinely good things for your well being. I hope all goes well for you and to see you again someday.

        • thehawkfam8889

          Let’s not forget nobody is perfect. Let’s also not forget the only person to ever keep the greatest two commandments 100 percent was Jesus Christ. Yes there might be a couple, but you and I don’t know for sure, so we should avoid making comment’s like that.

  • Dave BT

    I would like some of your insight on the following two passages:

    1) Matthew 11:21-24 and the same reference in Luke 10:12-15
    Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been
    performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth
    and ashes. And you, Capernaum, who
    are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades;
    for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it
    would have remained until this day.
    But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom
    in the day of judgment than for you.

    2) Matthew 23:37 & Luke 13:34
    “Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I
    have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

    It seems to imply the use of will, in the case of Sodom having had the possibility of still remaining, and in the case of Jerusalem, Jesus implying, by the wording, His pre-existent incarnation. Why would Jesus express anger, in the case of Bethsaida and Capernaum, and then seemingly sorrow over Jerusalem’s unwillingness? Why express emotion over possibilities that never could have occurred anyhow? The end results were already predetermined.

  • JI

    I’m not a Calvnist because I wasn’t ordained to be one haha. Yes there is obviously predestination in the Bible, but it says by foreknowledge. It’s also obvious that free will is in the Bible as well. “CHOOSE you this day whom you will serve” in Joshua. Stephen said in Acts about people “resisting the Holy Spirit.”

    • brazen cross

      The choice chosen ,whom you will serve, was simply fulfillment of destiny. Free will is an illusion.

    • Luther_1517

      So, you’re saying that man controls God? God has to get permission from man to save Him? Man calls the shots? Really? You see this in Scripture?

      Abraham asked God to be the father of all the nations? What is it, you think, that causes man to want to be in control of whether he is saved or not?

      • musefortune

        Man decides to disobey = man decides to obey. Duh. Just like our own earthly children make choices…we also make choices. Who said anything about “control”. God did his part. Now we have to do ours — by CHOOSING Him, rather than by choosing to remain in our sin and become hardened. Why did God bother dying on the cross and making his Grace available if He was just going to decide for us…He could have done that at the foundation of the world. It doesn’t add up….sorry.

        • Luther_1517

          It doesn’t add up to you because you don’t understand it. I suggest you do some study of what Paul wrote in Eph 1:3-11. That will be a good start for you.

          Btw, God is not some cosmic cheerleader who sits in Heaven and hopes that we make the right decision/choice for Him. No one seeks after God, no one is righteous, the unsaved man can not please God either. (Ever read Romans? 3:10-12, 8:6-8.) How can the unsaved man “please” God?

          It takes the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a person to bring about faith in that person. Otherwise man will always stay in love with his sin. This includes you too. You’re not exempt. This is the biblical reality of who unregenerate man is before God.

          • musefortune

            OK, I’ll start there, and you can start at John 3:16. Deal?

          • Luther_1517

            Absolutely. Key word there in 3:16 is whosoever WILL. It’s not whosoever CAN. We are told 3 chapters later in John 6 those people who WILL come to Christ. It is ALL who the Father has given to the Son. It is ALL of those who God draws. It is ALL of those who God grants the ability to come.

            You see, God enables man to come to Christ. It’s called regeneration. When you take all that Scripture says about the will of unregenerate man, you will see clearly that the natural unsaved man wants nothing to do with God. He doesn’t seek God, he can’t please God, he is at enmity with God. It takes God giving the man a new heart with new desires that want to seek Christ. So, John 3:16 is easy. The whosoever doesn’t mean every Tom, Dick, and Harry. Far from it. It just means that whosoever WILL does, on God’s time, come to Christ.

          • musefortune

            Okay, so my response was a lazy one. I guess I am simply weary of this doctrinal argument. Not weary of you…just the argument. We will probably have to agree to disagree. The only one who can change your point of view is the Holy Spirit (and likewise for me). When Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, it was for anyone who was willing to look upon it. In the same way, Jesus was lifted up so that anyone willing to acknowledge him can and will be saved. Man is lost in his depravity, but still has a longing for God within him, which is why no one will be able to claim that he ‘didn’t know’. Knowing what God did, and being desirous of change is in no way ‘trying to be good’ or ‘working to gain salvation’. I understand that our righteousness is as filthy rags in God’s sight, but I do not understand that to mean we are incapable of accepting a gift, in this case, the cross and all that it entails. I believe that the doctrine of predestination, in the way you are interpreting it here, is just another way that Satan will discourage sinners from accepting God’s gracious gift to ALL of humanity – that it has caused (and may continue to cause) those who might come to Him, to worry that they are not ‘chosen’. I have to try to remain calm, because the possibility of this happening angers me deeply. I have to understand that you, and others who believe as you do, have been brain-washed by MEN (“scholars”, “theologians”. etc. to believe this lie.) Just as the first Adam brought death to ALL, the second Adam, Christ Jesus, has brought LIFE to ALL. And ALL is ALL. Praise You Jesus!

          • DLLRJO

            Romans 9:19-24New International Version (NIV)

            19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[a] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

            22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

            “WHAT IF GOD, ALTHOUGH CHOOSING TO SHOW HIS WRATH AND MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, BORE WITH GREAT PATIENCE THE OBJECTS OF HIS WRATH – PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION”???
            PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION?
            “WHAT IF HE DID THIS TO MAKE THE RICHES OF HIS GLORY KNOWN TO THE OBJECTS OF HIS MERCY WHOM HE PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR GLORY -…”
            PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR GLORY??
            THIS IS RIGHT TOUGH. BUT IT FITS WITH ROMANS 8:28-31? AND OTHER PLACES.

          • Bondservant

            Very well said again, brother. It is very rare that I come across someone who loves, honours and proclaims the sovereignty of God.

          • Sonsinger

            I agree.

            My rejection of Calvinism is based on two points. (1) John 3:16 does not say “God so loved the predestined …”. (2) Millions of people accepted Christ before John Calvin and his ilk were born, and then turned the Bible on its head based on a mere couple of dozen verses, ignoring the preponderance of Biblical teachings so that they could make God’s Kingdom look like an exclusive club, open only to those who are certain that they are predestined.

            Personally, I think Calvinists misinterpret what it is that is predestined. I think God did not predestine who would accept Christ. I think Paul is saying that God predestined those who accept Christ would then be saved.

            This Calvinist position reminds me of the so-called Prosperity Gospel. Yes, there are some Bible verses that seem to support that position, but there much more evidence that it is balderdash.

          • Bondservant

            Whenever an Arminian rails against the sovereignty of God in the salvation of men, my good sense would tell me to just ignore such a one.

          • musefortune

            Great response, I enjoyed reading that!

          • Eli

            John 3:16 when properly translated does not say God so loved the WORLD, it actually would have been more accurately translated ORDERLY ARRANGEMENT ,not WORLD . How can he so love the WORLD when Jesus in John 17::9 flat out says I pray NOT FOR the WORLD?!

          • theGiantMidget 2000

            (1) actually John 3:16’s message is pretty close to what you don’t want it to say.
            (2) just for the record Mr. Calvin did not invent the idea of predestination, God did.

            “We talk about predestination because the Bible talks about
            predestination. If we desire to build our theology on the Bible, we run head on into this concept. We soon discover that John Calvin did not invent it.”

            -R.C. Sproul

          • Tiffany

            It doesn’t say “whosever WILL” it just says “whosoever believeth”

          • theGiantMidget 2000

            The KJV is not the only “right/correct/true” version of the bible.

          • Bondservant

            Well said, brother. I love the sovereignty of God. And I really hate the so-called sovereignty of man.

        • TLC

          I believe that we cannot save ourselves but that faith is a “gift” that he gives. Just as a blind man cannot see until he is given sight (no matter how hard he tries to see). Maybe kind of like that? Maybe he gives us (as a gift) the desire to know him? : )

          • musefortune

            We certainly can NOT save ourselves, I never said that or gave that impression! But I do believe we have a CHOICE in the matter. We always have a choice when it comes to obedience (whether to obey or not). Hence the verse in 1 Samuel 15:22, “To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams.” This verse makes it clear that we choose to “obey”, we choose to “heed.” Becoming “saved” is not a passive thing that happens TO us. Why would God tell us to obey, if we do not have a free will in order to do so? We CHOOSE to enter into that relationship!

            Also, I believe that we ALL (can) know the truth, yet still choose NOT to obey. Otherwise, why would scripture say (2 Peter 2:21) “It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness and to have known and turned away from the holy commandment passed on to them.”

            Romans 1:21 makes it clear that no one will have an excuse to deny the existence and salvation of our Lord. How can this be relevant if God’s existence and salvation is not available to most of us (because only certain ones are chosen)?

            (Romans 1:21, For since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–has been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.)

            Predestination, in the format presented by Calvinists, does not make sense.

          • theGiantMidget 2000

            It is very audacious of you, a HUMAN deserving of eternal damnation from birth, to decide that YOU not God ultimately chooses your eternal destiny.

            You need to read Rom 8:28-34 and Rom 9:10-24.
            The following are excerpts from the above stated passages, with interpretations in parenthesis.

            “those he foreknew he also predestined” (he not only knew who would believe but HE chose who would believe)

            “it is God who justifies. Who is he that CONDEMNS” (answer: God)

            “Jacob I loved but Esau I HATED” (It doesn’t sound like it is up to Jacob or Esau who he loves or not)

            “what then shal we say? is God unjust?” [but its not fair! you say] “not at all!… I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion” (in other words God is sovereign therefore what ever he chooses is god and right.)

            “God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden” (oh right it really is your choice.)

            “one of you [musefortune] will say to me: then why does God still blame us ? for who resists his will” [your words as quoted from above: Why would God tell us to obey, if we do not have a free will in order to do so?] “But who are you, [musefortune] O man, to talk back to God? ‘Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ‘ [you say: Why did God bother dying on the cross and making his Grace available
            if He was just going to decide for us…He could have done that at the
            foundation of the world. (he could have, but he didn’t)] “Does not the potter have the right to make out if the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?” (God can choose who is saved and who is not simply because he is the creator God and you are the creation. Potter, clay; God, man.)

        • thehawkfam8889

          Because the cross fully pays the debts of his Chosen people from past to future.

          3:16 God so loved the world. Some have insisted that God sent Jesus to die in order to make salvation possible for everyone without exception. However, Jesus makes clear that the salvation of those whom the Father gives Him is not a mere possibility but an absolute certainty. All of those whom God has chosen will come to Christ, who has laid down His life only for His sheep and not for those who have not been chosen from the foundation of the world (6:37–40; 10:14–18; 17:9). The point made by “the world” is that Christ’s saving work is not limited to one time or place or people (the Jews), but applies to the elect from all over the world no matter the era in which they live or their ethnicity. Moreover, in John, “the world” often opposes God (1:10; 7:7; 14:17; 15:18, 19), so the wonder of God’s love is displayed in the unworthiness of its object. Those who do not receive the remedy God has provided in Christ will perish. It remains true that anyone who believes in Christ will not die (be separated from God) but live in God’s presence forever.

          • musefortune

            Everyone keeps talking about exegesis and hermeneutics, etc. How about a little bit of commonsense? Point behind studying the Bible is to use our mind and our logic to understand what God is saying. When Jesus, in the New Testament, talks about the ‘truth being hidden so that certain people can’t understand it’ he makes it clear that sometimes we need to read between the lines. And this is where the Holy Spirit comes in. No, we surely cannot save ourselves. But we can turn and cry out to our Lord, our Savior, our Abba father. Do you remember when the rich young ruler came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do? He went away sad. And Jesus was sad. Jesus wasn’t sad because he knew ‘he had already condemned the man to hell’. He knew that the man would not be willing to give up his great riches!!! We have a say in whether or not we choose to answer the call of our maker. And I don’t care what Calvin or any other MAN says, because they are NOT my God.

          • thehawkfam8889

            No where does it say Jesus was sad. You are adding to the text. You are adding to the text and twisting scriptures to make them speak for your view. You are in error sir.

          • musefortune

            You miss my whole point. Maybe the scripture does not say that ‘Jesus was sad’… but the fact that it ‘does not explicitly say that’ does not mean that he wasn’t. There are plenty of other places in the same book (you know, the Bible?) where it is clear that God was angered, the Holy Spirit was grieved, or Jesus wept. The Godhead certainly does show emotion, and is grieved when we do not obey God’s commands. (Grieved to the point where the entire earth was destroyed with the flood.) And I am not a sir, I am a woman, which I’m sure renders me unable to ever teach you anything. If you look back over the last two years of this post, you will see several posts where I have listed many scriptures I support my view that predestination is a sham. I am tired of flinging out scriptures. It does no good. And it is not wrong to use emotion or personal judgment to help me understand the Scriptures, for God has given me both faculties to further my understanding. You can cut the scripture up into such minuscule pieces that it no longer maintains its shape. And I do not believe you when you say that you are not familiar with John Calvin. You came up with all of your extensive knowledge all on your own, just by reading the Scripture with the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you? If you revere your teachers, then who are they? You guys are all the same. It’s like Groundhog Day, which is why I have stopped spewing out scriptures to defend my view. (II Timothy 2:23.) The only reason I am continuing this conversation is with the hope that someone (who thinks they might not be “chosen”) might read this and know that they can turn to the Lord. They can be saved. Anyone can be saved.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Had to come back to say I made a mistake down below. I had taken something out of context and was corrected. Isaiah 28:10. If only other people could stand to be corrected. Especially when heavy evidence is provided as such in these comments and refutations. My reason for coming back to comment on you is you added to the scripture. If it’s not in scripture you shouldn’t speculate that is mishandling and wrong. As I did you should acknowledge where you were wrong and stop adding to scripture to try and affirm your belief.

          • thehawkfam8889

            If every individual had the capability to read and clearly understand what the text was saying we wouldn’t need teachers now would we? We wouldn’t have needed people to go out into the 4 corners of the world preaching. We would have just handed them the text and said good luck I’m sure you will come to the 1 consistent interpretation God gave us. There is only 1 consistent interpretation we were given. God is not the author of confusion. That consistent message isn’t Christian Science, Catholicism, Jehovah Witness, Mormon and certainly not Jesus died in vain on the cross because he couldn’t provide absolute salvation for those whom he died for. He wanted all to be save but didn’t have the power. I’m sorry but that is not the teaching of Bible. God does have the power to save whom he wants or else he isn’t omnipotent. You my friend is saying God wants to do something but can’t because of men unwillingness. You are saying God only provides an opportunity to fallen men to be save but doesn’t have the power to actually save or assure salvation.

            God doesn’t say here is the cross, choose it if you will and leave people to themselves. God applies the work of Christ, the Holy Spirit works in people who are dead in sin in order to bring them to faith and to insure that the death of Christ is never in vain.

    • thehawkfam8889

      The Bible does not ever say foreknowledge “in light of what people were going to do.” The Bible never speaks about ‘in light of peoples decisions or what they were going to do’. If there was ever a chance or perfect opportunity to explain foreknowledge-‘in light of what people were going to do’ it would have been placed here.

      Romans 9:11

      “(For the children being not
      yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God
      according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that
      calleth;)”

      9:11 they were not yet born. The case of Jacob and Esau clinches the argument in three ways: (a) because they were twins, they were as nearly equal in nature as possible; (b) because the purpose of God reversed even the small distinction that did exist, by causing the older brother to serve the younger (inverting cultural expectations, Gen. 48:13–20; 49:3, 4; Deut. 21:15–17); (c) because the purpose of God was stated before they were born (and therefore was not dependent on their actions). Election is not based on foreseen actions, deeds, or faith. Rather, it is based on God’s sovereign predestinating grace.

  • Stephen Garland

    Great verses. Jameseo is so correct. I would just caution not to forget the mystery. Man must submit. Man must make his calling and election sure. Our faith and belief predestined us to be with Christ. Our faith conforms us to be Christ-like. God saves and man can take no credit.

    • sonsinger

      Amen.

    • theGiantMidget 2000

      Amen brotha 🙂

  • firework

    Both are in the Bible only you misinterpret who the elect are. They are specifically chosen by God to do specific jobs for Him that gather sheep and glorify Him. Many are called (the saved) few are chosen (the elect). Examples would be Jesus, prophets, apostles, King David, etc. Yes there is also free will. God sovereignly chose for us to have it. There is no other way to show genuine love to God without. We are just robots otherwise. A God of love would never choose to torment many and save a few. Examples of God demonstrating free will would be seen with the prophecies. Like Jonah telling Nineveh to repent or there would be destruction from God. They repented thus no destruction. There were also times where repentance was not follllowed and God’s wrath ensued. One of the quotes you use (proverbs- I’m guessing one of the later ones) is considered apocrypha which I could agree with because God is love, pure and good. There is NO evil or darkness in Him therefore He does NOT create the wickedness. I hope you have eyes to see. God bless you.

    • dllrjo

      finally, IF God is sovereign, then he is in charge of evil also. ISAIAH 45:7 King James Bible
      I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

      • firework

        Again a matter of understanding. He formed the light thus the opposite, darkness, surfaced. He brings peace and thus evil follows because evil enjoys chaos and confusion not peace. He has power over it which is why demons etc. cower when He is present (just look at the scriptures with Christ and the possessed). There is NO darkness in God or wickedness.

        • dllrjo

          The book of Joshua presents most readers with a troubling question: how can a God of love command his followers to destroy an entire nation of people? The Canaanites had lived in their land for centuries before Joshua and his people came to claim it for themselves. While some in Canaan fought against God’s people and were destroyed as a result (cf. the battle of Ai, 8:14ff), others did not attempt armed aggression against Israel. The people of Jericho, for instance, retreated inside their city walls and mounted no attack against the Jews. Nonetheless, following divine orders, the Israeli soldiers “destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys” (6:21). question: what is it called when every human is massacred. wasn’t what the Israelites did qualify to be called a “Holocaust”? or is it that what happened in WWII to the Jews where every man woman and child are killed the only one to be called a “Holocaust”? did God call the first to take place and it was acceptable, but this same Sovereign Lord did not call the second into being. you said there is no wickedness in God. and this is true. but what to do with these two “Holocausts”? if both have the same result?

          • firework

            You make excellent points that, surprisingly, can be answered within this head but there is great struggle going on within this self with regard to truth, obedience, and speaking rightly of Him. Due to said circumstance your excellent points cannot be cleared currently. My sincerest apology for this inconvenience but this vessel has grown weary of questioning all that is spoken from it for fear of wrong representation. This is genuinely meant.
            Both are holocausts but most definitely vary. Please look at John 17:6-26 for deeper understanding. May you see what has been presented.

          • musefortune

            For now we see through a glass darkly, but then…we shall see face to face. (I Cor. 13:12) (There is much that we know – but SO MUCH MORE that we do not. We are arrogant to think we understand all and know anything for certain!) I do know and believe, by faith alone, that our Lord and God loves us ALL, and wants us to be with him in glory. God bless you too!

    • firework

      A correction to an early misinformed statement. No proverbs are considered apocrypha, my apologies for this error stated. Another book was in mind when stating such. There is no ill intention here toward those who love Him and it is never the intention of this vessel to misguide/misdirected any. Please forgive me for this earlier errancy. May our Lord richly bless you.

  • firework

    Also the twins Jacob and Esau refer to the nations that each of them are the fathers of. Esau himself was not severely mistreated throughout his life. Another one, when referring to the Book of the Lamb do not forget names can be blotted out and are so. All the others you mention refer to the elect and one refers specifically to Jesus, the ultimate elect. Again God bless.

  • Dean

    I would like to address a few of these verses and how they don’t remotely support calvinism whatsoever if anyone wants to hear.

    • musefortune

      Shoot – would love to hear what you have to say! Sorry for delayed response. It’s been a while since I’ve read anything on hear worth responding to. Just the same old crusty supports for a misleading and depressing doctrine.

  • the HAMMER

    While I am thinking over the rest of the verses, look over these and try to explain how they can be reconciled with Calvinism:

    1 Corinthians 10:13-There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    Timothy 2:4-Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    James 1:13-Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

  • Jim

    2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is … not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

    If God “does it all” (no free will), then why does God FORCE only some to “repent” to be saved, but not all? If God is “not willing that any should perish,” then He would simply elect everyone and force ALL the unsaved persons to repent. If He does not do that, then this verse would make Him a liar (if there is no free will). But he does not elect everyone and does not force anyone to repent !!!!!

    Instead, when presented the message of salvation, unsaved persons come to a point of “decision” where they believe, repent, confess, call on the Lord, and do whatever else to be saved (with their heart and mouth), without being forced to. This is not “works salvation”, but the birth of “faith” in the unsaved, and so one is “saved by faith”. This “birth” is like God planting the “seed” in the unsaved person’s mind, and then the mind decides to accept or reject the “seed” and respond one way or other to be saved or not.

    When one looks into the Greek verbs’ voices in the following verses, it becomes clear that the “decision” to initially repent (also to initially believe, confess, call on the Lord, etc) co-exists with God’s will to elect believers. While God calls the unsaved, the unsaved person responds to God’s call in the “active” or “middle voice”, indicating they are not forced in any way to decide. It is only in the “passive” voice that the unsaved would be forced to believe, confess, repent, call on the Lord. But the “passive” voice is NOT used.
    ( Ex: Luke 13:3,5, Romans 10:9,13, Acts 2:21, Acts 3:19, among many others)

    And in Acts 7:51, the word “resist” is in the “active”, so again, God does not force these people to resist the Spirit of God; they do it of their own accord.

    Even 2 Peter 3:9 has “come” in “all should come to repentance” in the active voice.

    Now some may dispute all this by quoting some verses with the “passive” voice with respect to the gospel, but they only occur where the unsaved person is listening to the gospel, not making the decision to respond.

    • Richard Amantite

      Would you say that all whom God calls can be used to convert others? The importance of the Great Commission, for instance.
      ________
      Luke 10:2

      2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

      ________
      Romans 10:11-16
      11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

      12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

      13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

      14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how
      shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall
      they hear without a preacher?

      15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How
      beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and
      bring glad tidings of good things!

      16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

      _______
      Joel 2:28-29
      28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon
      all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men
      shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

      29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

      ________

      Ephesians 1:13-14

      13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel
      of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed
      with that holy Spirit of promise,

      14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
      ________

      All I know is that without God calling me to him and filling me with the Holy Spirit, there’s no way I could have become a Christian or really understand the word of God. I don’t really read into any of the -ists, -ans, -als, -isms or etc. I just read the bible and that’s what I trust above all else. This is one of the most fascinating subjects in the Bible.

      • Jim

        Well, not all who are called respond, I would think

    • TLC

      Yes, so the Gospel saves! Saved through the Gospel. When you put yourself in the presence of his word, and you realize ” that’s him, that’s my father!”

  • Jim

    One more note: Ephesians 1 goes to great length to explain predestination as clearly an action God takes, but when we read verse 12 in the Greek, we read “In whom ye also HEARD the word of-truth, the gospel of-your salvation, in whom also YE-BELIEVED, ye-were sealed-with Holy Spirit of-promise.” The act of hearing the Word of salvation and the act of believing are both in the active voice, so the prerogative was the unsaved persons’, not God’s. Of course “sealed” is in the passive, since that is God’s prerogative. (Prerogative is another word for “free will”, in a manner of speaking.)

  • Dean

    Yes! I agree. I think,that one of the roots of Calvinism is that some Calvinists want to disregard the Great Commission as purely in God’s hands.

    • theGiantMidget 2000

      I’m not speaking for “the roots of Calvinism” but I do believe that from Gods perspective we do not have free will BUT we are not God, we don’t know who will be chosen and who won’t we must therefore operate from the human perspective of having free will.

  • gerard

    1. The first reason that the Arminian understanding of Romans 8:29 is unscriptural is the fact that “foreknow” in this passage does not simply mean to know an event before it happens. Paul uses “foreknow” in the Old Testament Hebraistic sense of to love beforehand. John Murray writes: “Although the term ‘foreknow’ is used seldom in the New Testament, it is altogether indefensible to ignore the meaning so frequently given to the word ‘know’ in the usage of Scripture; ‘foreknow’ merely adds the thought of ‘beforehand’ to the word ‘know.’ Many times in Scripture ‘know’ has a pregnant meaning which goes beyond that of mere cognition. It is used in a sense practically synonymous with ‘love,’ to set regard upon, to know with peculiar interest, delight, affection, and action (cf. Gen. 18:19; Exod. 2:25; Psalm 1:6; 144:3; Jer. 1:5; Amos 3:2; Hosea 13:5; Matt. 7:23; 1 Cor. 8:3; Gal. 4:9; 2 Tim. 2:19; 1 John 3:1)…. It means ‘whom he set regard upon’ or ‘whom he knew from eternity with distinguishing affection and delight’ and is virtually equivalent to ‘whom he foreloved.’”30 God’s electing love originates from Himself and not out of a foreseen faith or repentance. Therefore, when the Bible discusses election, it always grounds it in God and not sinful, depraved humanity. Election is “according to His good pleasure“ (Eph. 1:9). It is “after the counsel of His own will” (Eph. 1:11).

  • Rod W
  • Eric

    Having agonized over trying to clarify spiritual truth (both intellectually and experiencially) for my 65 yr lifetime, I find myself becoming more and more comfortable with letting many theological debates stay in the area of mystery until God chooses to make it perfectly clear to all of his followers. Jesus, himself, spoke largely in parables, purposefully clouding the meaning of the stories until, and when, he chose to clarify the meaning of his teachings. I am convinced of one thing, If God has chosen to let a point of theology to be debatible by God-seeking people, it is Satan who wins if he can get us being hostile towards each other rather than focusing on what Jesus made very clear, to “love one another as I have loved you”, and to “love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind.”
    “Faith”, whether it is a result of God’s predestination, or whether it is a completely free will choice of those who God as elected to reveal the gosple, cleaarly requires being willing to be at peace without being allowed to obtain complete clarity on many of the questions we have and even on many of the teachings about spiritual matters in the compilation of writings that the Roman Catholic church compiled in 400 AD as the cannonized Bible. Rather than “worshiping” the Bible, or constantly trying to defend debatable theological arguements from scripture, perhaps Christians need to be frequently reminded that we are to be surrendering ourselves to the Will of God and “seeking first the kingdom of righteousness”, and fulfilling our directive to use our spiritual gifts to “build up the body of Christ”. While probably all of us reading this blog will agree that God has reavealed more about himself and his truths through the writings of Bible, moreso than any other writings in history, we can become “divided” by worshiping the Bible rather than worshiping the God that the writers of the Bible talks about. Bitterness between believers is NOT “building up the body of Christ”. “Maybe it’s time to get back to the basics of love.”
    Eric

    • Tiffany

      Amen!!!

    • sonsinger

      Eric, thank you. Let us always remember Isaiah 55:8.

    • theGiantMidget 2000

      Now there is a man of wisdom!

      Thank you.

    • JD

      You have a point there for sure. But does this mean we should not speak out against dangerous, damaging and damnable doctrines that malign the character of God and erroneously twist His Word?

      How would the apostle Paul or John the beloved respond to such teachings today? The Spirit of God expressed great anger and spoke out strongly against the Judaizers infiltrating the body of Christ and teaching a different Jesus than Paul had taught them. John in his old age refused to even enter a bath house with the heretic Cerenthis. John said, ” “Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within!””

      Calvin himself may not have been a heretic. His writings can be used to support a universal atonement in many places. Those who would take his philosophizing out of context and preach a god who creates many people for the sole purpose of sending them to Hell are greatly misrepresenting God who is Love. They are maligning His character and causing Him to be spoken evil of among those who are not saved. They make him out to be a sadistic monster who is nothing like the Jesus that Paul preached.

      The biggest error among such heretics who tear down the character of God is that they believe since God is sovereign that He must be in complete control of everything. They believe since God is sovereign then He must be the one behind all evil, sin and darkness. In their darkened philosophy they just can’t wrap their minds around a God who is sovereign but allows evil to take place under His watch though it is not His will. Like many demon possessed people of this world they blame God for all the evil in the world. They just do so with religious terminology and they promote accepting and “loving” such a god.

      Is this something we should just accept as just a difference of doctrine among “believers”? Or should we passionately defend the true character of our God and represent Him properly to a lost and dying world?

  • Joan Krillig

    We need to be clear. Some of use are saved and some of us are not. God predestined some children to suffer and be tortured and murdered on this earth and then to be tortured and burnt forever in hell. This is a Just God, and is righteous in all He does.

    It is important to understand that our righteousness and justice are not Gods. God kills and burns and tortures at His will. He kills and murders and hacks children and babies to death, and yet this is righteous. If you are saved, then you will be spared the eternal fire in the end. If you are not saved, you perhaps could end your lives sooner to spare yourself punishment in this life, but you cannot escape the burning torment that you were ultimately created for.

  • Vince

    God is pure, infinite Love. He wishes we would all chose to love Him as He loves us and surrender to Him and choose Him and not the world
    .
    “He is patient with us not wanting ANYONE to perish but EVERYONE to come to repentance.”. 2 Peter 3v9
    “This is good and pleases God who wants ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the Truth.” 1 Timothy 2v3,4

  • musefortune

    Fine. Then God makes a move towards each and every one of us at some point during our lives. We either choose to ignore him, or answer the call. We can’t just pull verses out here and there to support our doctrine. We have to interpret the Bible as a whole. God said he wants NONE to perish. He also says that nature makes it clear that he exists, so that no one will have an excuse (to claim they did not know about Him). Christ died for the world, and the world includes all of us. He died for every single one of us. And anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Anything else is a lie and a trick of the devil to make us think we are not worthy of His Grace.

  • Jim

    When you look at Romans 10:9-10 in the Greek, verse 9 has “believe” and “confess” in the active voice, but in verse 10, “believe” and “confess” are in the passive voice, which at first seems strange. I mean it makes sense to be active voice, but not passive?
    The explanation seems to be that “free will” exists in verse 9, but once we “believe” and “confess” of our own “free will” as implied in the active voice, God takes over and “elects” us such that He “implants” the action of “believe” and “confess” in us, as indicated in the passive voice in verse 10. That is, He makes us to “believe” and “confess” the instant we are born of God. Indeed, many a person will tell you of the change they experience within, and is most certainly passive.
    So these two verses, side by side, show in virtually the same moment in time, that “free will” and “election” coexist.
    Furthermore, verse 11 then goes on to put “believes” in the present active participle (in the Greek), which means to continuously believe, which is not humanly possible. However, the Holy Spirit working in us continuously causes us to believe continuously in our spirit-filled mind, no matter what our flesh does to disbelieve.

  • common-sense

    Wow, so the people predestined to burn in fire forever aren’t responsible and have no say so in the matter. Awesome!

    • Even though I wrote this post and believe in predestination, I kinda always had the same question. I even considered writing another post asking the similar: if a person that doesn’t accept Christ and stands before God on judgement day, can’t they say hey God that was your choice? But the thing not to get twisted is the fact that we still have free will and that he just already knows our choices. And to avoid fatalism.

      • musefortune

        Exactly. He already knows our “destination” because he is God. He “pre-knows”…

    • firework

      The people He predestined were those whose heart was right for specific work He has. (The laborers are few but the crop is bountiful- again particular people: prophets, apostles, kings, the two witnesses, Christ Himself are all elect- if you do not believe me than look at Christ’s final prayer both for those the Father chose (the elect) and those who are brought to Him through the elect, all becoming one in Christ in the end but NOT for those of the world.)He knows who will choose which path and where it leads but He would prefer that we all made a choice to be with Him-again He knows that this does not happen (thus Christ weeping for Jerusalem etc.). We have free will to choose whether or not to be with Him or the world He nudges all of us, some just refuse to follow because they love the world more. The elect are those God knows will follow Him in the work He calls them to do. Hell is the absence of God. What is God?…Good. So hell is the absence of good like love, joy, peace, happiness, delight. What is left? Pain, misery, suffering, guilt, hatred, abuse, neglect etc. God does not torture (He does chasten those He loves sometimes by way of allowing suffering but it is out of love just like a parent here might do to teach their child what they should and should not do in order to grow). He absolutely cannot have darkness with Him thus those who do not choose Him cannot share in His goodness.

      • firework

        Here is the prayer Christ prayed that I am referring to:

        John 17

        Jesus Prays to Be Glorified
        17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

        “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

        Jesus Prays for His Disciples
        6 “I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of[b] your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

        13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

        Jesus Prays for All Believers
        20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

        24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

        25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

    • musefortune

      Which shows, there’s no common sense in that. Love isn’t love if there’s no way out.

  • common-sense

    Isaiah 46:10 says god chose certain people before he even created them, yes he chose to bring these non existent beings into manifestation for what purpose? To control their every action like a puppet on a string and essentially force them to succumb to temptations of sin that were already laid out by Him. Now that they have been FORCED to sin by a system that was rigged from the beginning; NOW they have to face eternal damnation. Imagine being brought into existence to be tortured forever and ever, and having no say so what so ever in the matter. But you don’t have to imagine; it is already a reality. Lol, talk about a cruel fate!

    • I totally understand where you are coming from. But here are a few points :
      1. He gave us freewill. Even after these questions and stance on this topic, we still have a choice to accept Christ. Yes, he knows what we pick. But it’s still up to us.
      2. He does whatever he pleases. We are all his creation. You can decide to accept that or not, it’s still your choice.
      3. He loves you and loves everyone. That’s why we can still chose him and be obedient and share the gospel with others to help get more saved.
      There’s no fine line between predestination and free will and they are not opposites. He just created a world and gave us all options, and he just knows which ones we’ll chose.
      Just don’t fall into fatalism thinking you don’t have a choice, because that’s twisting everything up and is a lie to prevent people from submitting to Him.

    • firework

      If you look at the people in the Bible this is referring to you will see that they are always people that have specific jobs to do for Him: Jeremiah-prophet, King David-2nd king of Israel and lineage to Christ, John the Baptist-prophet and 2nd Elijah, Jesus of Nazareth-Son of God. All have specific God called jobs.

    • Dakota Barry

      His will be done from the beginning to the end. Man can do nothing to save himself but it’s much simpler. Man can do all things through Christ Jesus therefore apart from Christ Jesus, man can do nothing.

    • musefortune

      I know, right?

  • common-sense

    Isaiah 45:7
    Verbatim: Since god is solely responsible for the existence of all things, it stands to reason he is responsible for evil as well. To be the creator of “light” and “darkness”; “good” and “evil” leaves no room for for responsibility because YOU HAVE NO CONTROL ANYWAY. DURR!

  • duday.camus

    Helpful piece . Speaking of which , if your company is requiring a a form , my colleagues filled out and esigned a template document here https://goo.gl/Jv4dmw.

  • theGiantMidget 2000

    Looking forward to it! See ya there!

  • thehawkfam8889

    This is my last comment. I’m only stating this because I will not be returning to this comment page because enough scripture and biblical evidence has been provided.

    To say God wants to save every single individual but can’t is to limit God’s power and say he is not truly all powerful. What a frightening thing it would be to leave salvation in the hands of man and dependent on man. What a frightening thing it will be to see God and say I truly didn’t believe you had the power to save whom you want and to show mercy to some and justice to others. What a frightening day it will be when you face God and say Christ’s death was in vain because he wanted to save these people but couldn’t and it wasn’t a completed work. Christ’s work is not and will not ever be in vain.
    Romans 8:30-And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called
    he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

    • musefortune

      I stopped reading after “This is my last comment. I’m only stating this because I will not be returning to this comment page.” Why bother? You obviously already think you know it all. THE GREAT OZ HAS SPOKEN! This is the reason that the world thinks Christians are jerks. So arrogant, you can’t even have a conversation without having to have the last word….smh

      • thehawkfam8889

        I only came back to admit I was wrong. I couldn’t leave it like that I had to let it be corrected. I never said I know it all. What I’ve noticed from you is instability and the lack of control. A lack of grace and adding to the Bible. I don’t need the last word either. I merely came back to correct something and say I was wrong on something. Something you havn’t shown you could do. Yes I see one jerk right now. I pray God will soften your heart. Your abuse is unreal for someone who claims to be Christian.

        • musefortune

          I guess we both need to think about the effect our words have on others. I felt that you were being condescending and arrogant. I have been surrounded with such ilk my entire life…you words didn’t smack of love either! I am definitely not ‘stable’ (according to what I THINK your definition is). I believe I am a “passionate” person, and I feel what I believe passionately. I don’t think that’s a sin. Even God gets angry.

          I apologize if I responded in an unkind way.

        • musefortune

          How did I ‘add to the Bible’? Did I not explain my reasoning? It’s OK for YOU to put verses together to come to a conclusion, but it’s not OK for ME to do so? It’s not OK for me to come to a conclusion about the nature of my God by reading his entire Word??
          If you take anything I said as ‘abuse’ or if you felt insulted, that is your own doing. If I said anything that hurt your feelings, I apologize. But as far as YOU judging MY spiritual fruit, you are way out of bounds. God alone will be my judge.

          • thehawkfam8889

            You are a troll and you are not here to be any help. All you have done was show a lack of grace I have no further interest in communicating with you.

          • musefortune

            I’ll bet this happens to you often. A ‘lack of grace’ = ‘not agreeing with you’. At least I speak openly and make my meaning clear without couching insults inside of religious jargon. You judgmental, condescending pharisee.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Disagreeing is not the reason for me saying you show a lack of grace. The constant abuse and name calling. Wishing of people not being born shows your lack of grace. These are not fruits of the spirit. You lack of being in control of your emotions. Something else we are told to do. I will not repay your unkindness with unkindness.

          • thehawkfam8889

            You added by saying Jesus was sad. You added and speculated which is something we are told not to do enough said.

      • thehawkfam8889

        I would say the world thinks Christians are jerks because of the multitude of people who claim to be Christian even though there is no fruit. they say they are Christian but attack and abuse and wish people wouldn’t have been born or say what a shame someone was born. People who claim Christianity yet falsely accuse and put words in peoples mouth.

        • musefortune

          So it’s a terrible thing for me to say that ‘I wish someone had not been born’. But it’s okay for you to say that ‘God did not die for everyone, but only for a select group’ (a group that I am sure you are in.)

          You sir, are a snake. Read your post one more time, then observe the three fingers pointing back at you.

          • thehawkfam8889

            Yes it IS okay for me to say God did not die for every single individual because that’s exactly what Jesus and the apostles taught us. I agree he died for All. As in all people groups from every tribe tongue in nation which is what is teaches. Once again I have not called anyone names or used any abuse toward anyone especially not wishing someone had not been born. It’s better you admit you are wrong and move on. I’m not the one who will be answering for what YOU have said here.

          • musefortune

            How can I be wrong about a wish? I wish Adam and Eve had never eaten the apple. I wish the Holocaust had not happened and Hitler had not been born. I wish that Charles Manson had not been born. No you didn’t call me any names. Only underhanded accusations about my being unstable, not showing any fruit, being WRONG, and needing my heart softened. Oh, and I am a troll. I feel edified. Thank you for that!

          • thehawkfam8889

            Because there is a huge difference between Hitler and John Calvin. Your trying to justify your evil doing. You cannot. There is an audience on these forums who also can see what you have said. I recommend you repent.

          • Logic

            JD you know this girl? Stay away from those who be wishing death and freaking out. Dodge that bullet son! Before it’s too late.

          • musefortune

            Mark 9:42

            Teaching false doctrine (speaking of ‘wishing that one had not been born’). Why plant seeds of doubt in anyone’s mind that they might not be among the ‘chosen’? How does this help build the Kingdom of God? How does this erroneous belief help spread the Gospel? Shouldn’t we be focused on ‘bringing them in’, instead worrying about which ones aren’t getting in?

            My God is a merciful God. I see no mercy in the man-made doctrine of Predestination. It sounds more like a contrived popularity contest. It sounds like ‘man’.

          • Logic

            You really want to do this? Okay then. Planting seeds of doubt? The bible is very clear if some are not His sheep they will not come to him. They won’t care. saying seeds of doubt to some is irrelevant. We go out and preach for the sheep. We don’t know who they are so we preach to the whole world….It’s not our job to worry or focus on who the elect are…. My God is merciful too. He could have shown Justice to all. He freely chose to show mercy to some. Your not God, and it’s not about how you feel or your ‘Man centered’ doctrine. It’s about God. It’s about God’s will and purpose. If you don’t feel secure with what the Bible teaches. Look for signs and changes in your life. Looks for the qualities it gives us of bearing fruit. Try praying? Don’t come to me with your emotionalism and false foreknowledge doctrine to try and make you feel better though….

      • thehawkfam8889

        PS. I didn’t know the definition of Jerk so I looked it up. I always thought it was just like saying you are mean/unreasonable.

        Definition of jerk

        1 : a single quick motion of short duration

        2 a : jolting, bouncing, or thrusting motions b : a tendency to produce spasmodic motions

        3 a : an involuntary spasmodic muscular movement due to reflex action b plural : involuntary twitchings due to nervous excitement

        4 a : an annoyingly stupid or foolish person b : an unlikable person; especially : one who is cruel, rude, or small-minded.

        Looking up words help. Now that I know what this means I’ll never use it. What Christian should knowingly want to call someone annoyingly stupid or foolish? I hope like me you didn’t know the meaning of this word. I also hope you didn’t use it out of contempt.

        Matthew 5:22

        But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, “Raca,” is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

        • musefortune

          NO-I really think that they (the world) think we are jerks! I wasn’t saying that you are one!! They think I am one too! I feel discouraged with close-minded Christians. Believers who can’t connect. We, as a group, have become irrelevant with our sparring over words and meanings of certain passages amongst ourselves. We need to give God room. What if…(we know that, for example) He created Pharoah and Esau for His purpose BUT…we don’t know the details regarding how they will be judged for eternity’s sake. And that’s okay. It’s okay to not know some things, let go and trust God to handle that “stuff that we will never know for sure” (the things that are non-negotiable enough to send us into different buildings to worship) and focus on our real mission. My name is Natalie BTW-thank you again for coming back. I felt so ‘kicked in the teeth’ by that statement.

  • musefortune

    I already responded to that. There is no need to admit that I am wrong. I responded to your accusation already with what I believe to be true.

    Mark 20:21

    Looking at Him, Jesus felt a love for him…

    • thehawkfam8889

      Mark 20:21?

      • musefortune

        I’m referring to the rich young ruler. I may have read a translation at some point that said Jesus felt sad… the one I just googled says “Jesus felt a love for him”

    • musefortune

      Mark 10:21 (my finger hit the 2 instead of the 1-sorry for confusion)

    • Logic

      When you are wrong you should admit it. It’s called humbling yourself.

      • JD

        Why don’t you demonstrate it?

        • Logic

          I demonstrate it everyday. Question Big Boy. In the past year name a specific time and date when you were wrong about something. What did it effect? Who did it affect? What made you realize you were wrong?

          Oh snap let’s see if you fail to interact here also. Hey did you take my advice on dodging that bullet which is musefortune? Actually I take that back. You abuse scripture. She abuses people. You guys are a perfect match.

  • musefortune

    And now I am evil and must repent. Did you read my response regarding Mark 10:21? Jesus looked at the rich young ruler and FELT LOVE for him. In my mind’s eye, I see Jesus looking at him tenderly…with pity. DO YOU KNOW WHY?

    Please stop your petulant whining about what a terrible person I am and answer the question. I don’t care what anyone on this forum thinks about me, because not one of them can cast my soul into hell fire, including you.

    • thehawkfam8889

      You have said some wicked things. Yes you do need to repent for that. You said Mark 20:21. Mark doesn’t go past chapter 16. You are an obvious troll. I no longer will continue this. I hope you also realize that every can see what you put here. I don’t know what type of person you are. I know the terrible things you have said on the forum though. I’m no judge. We will answer for what comes out of our mouths. My closing comment on Mark 10:21 Then I have no desire to continue an interaction with someone who can’t interact with control over their emotions.

      Starting with Mark 10:19 and going through the text as a whole.

      10:19 Do not defraud. This prohibition, virtually synonymous with “do not steal,” comes where the order of the Ten Commandments leads us to expect, “Do not covet” (Ex. 20:13–17). Perhaps Jesus substitutes this term (which, like stealing and coveting, pertains to possessions) in order to defer momentarily the issue of the rich man’s heart allegiance (which, if he were honest, should be exposed by “do not covet”), in anticipation of Jesus’ climactic and crucial ultimatum: “Sell all that you have.”

      10:21 loved him. Jesus’ final demand springs from a heartfelt desire to see this man set free from the illusion of self-righteousness and from captivity to his property.

      You lack one thing. The young man’s love of riches (v. 22) and refusal to give them up to follow Jesus shows that he has broken the greatest commandment of all: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might (Deut. 6:5; see Matt. 22:37). Lacking the total righteousness that God requires, he stands condemned.

      10:23 How difficult it will be for those who have wealth. The difficulty is not because riches are evil and disqualify those who possess them, but because the rich are tempted to depend upon their riches for their security, leaving it hard for many of them to admit their need of God (see 1 Tim. 6:9, 17).

      10:25 camel … eye of a needle. An excellent example of Jesus’ colorful, hyperbolic language, here expressing the idea of impossibility (v. 27). The suggestion that there was a small gate in ancient Judea, called “the needle’s eye,” through which camels could barely pass is unsupported and trivializes Jesus’ illustration.

      10:26 Then who can be saved. A simplistic reading of the covenant blessings and curses in the law of Moses (Deut. 28) and other OT texts fostered a widespread assumption that material wealth was an indication of God’s pleasure. Apparently, the disciples have inferred that if the rich could not be saved, salvation is out of the question for those less affluent.

      10:27 With man it is impossible. Salvation is beyond the reach of human achievement for rich and for poor. It is from the Lord, through sovereign, divine initiative (Ps. 3:8; 68:19, 20), not by human effort (Eph. 2:8, 9). He can achieve what is humanly impossible (Gen. 18:14; Luke 1:37).

    • Logic

      After what I just read in your post above you do need to repent. WOW someone who knows JD and adding to the word. No surprise there.

      • musefortune

        You remind me of the Pharisees.

        • Logic

          Oh snap another comment insulting someone. No surprise there. Do you need a safe-space? Let me make this perfectly clear for you and your man JD. I’m not here to care about what you think of me call me what you want I’m sure I’ve been called worse lol. I’m here ONLY because your perversion of the Gospel which I will continually correct and comment on if you comment. This is a losing battle for you. I assure you. The more you and JD talk the more you become entertainment for everyone reading.

  • thehawkfam8889

    Mark 10:19-27
    10:19 Do not defraud. This prohibition, virtually synonymous with “do not steal,” comes where the order of the Ten Commandments leads us to expect, “Do not covet” (Ex. 20:13–17). Perhaps Jesus substitutes this term (which, like stealing and coveting, pertains to possessions) in order to defer momentarily the issue of the rich man’s heart allegiance (which, if he were honest, should be exposed by “do not covet”), in anticipation of Jesus’ climactic and crucial ultimatum: “Sell all that you have.”

    10:21 loved him. Jesus’ final demand springs from a heartfelt desire to see this man set free from the illusion of self-righteousness and from captivity to his property.

    You lack one thing. The young man’s love of riches (v. 22) and refusal to give them up to follow Jesus shows that he has broken the greatest commandment of all: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might (Deut. 6:5; see Matt. 22:37). Lacking the total righteousness that God requires, he stands condemned.

    10:23 How difficult it will be for those who have wealth. The difficulty is not because riches are evil and disqualify those who possess them, but because the rich are tempted to depend upon their riches for their security, leaving it hard for many of them to admit their need of God (see 1 Tim. 6:9, 17).

    10:25 camel … eye of a needle. An excellent example of Jesus’ colorful, hyperbolic language, here expressing the idea of impossibility (v. 27). The suggestion that there was a small gate in ancient Judea, called “the needle’s eye,” through which camels could barely pass is unsupported and trivializes Jesus’ illustration.

    10:26 Then who can be saved. A simplistic reading of the covenant blessings and curses in the law of Moses (Deut. 28) and other OT texts fostered a widespread assumption that material wealth was an indication of God’s pleasure. Apparently, the disciples have inferred that if the rich could not be saved, salvation is out of the question for those less affluent.

    10:27 With man it is impossible. Salvation is beyond the reach of human achievement for rich and for poor. It is from the Lord, through sovereign, divine initiative (Ps. 3:8; 68:19, 20), not by human effort (Eph. 2:8, 9). He can achieve what is humanly impossible (Gen. 18:14; Luke 1:37).

  • JD

    Did Calvin really believe in a limited atonement as “Calvinist” promote today?

    Calvin’s Commentary on 1 Timothy 2:5 includes these notes:

    “Since, therefore, he wishes the benefit of his death to be common to all, an insult is offered to him by those who, by their opinion, shut out any person from the hope of salvation.”

    • musefortune

      I wish that I had known that John Calvin made this statement before I publicly ‘wished that he had never been born’. I admit now that I was wrong. I hope you know that I wasn’t really wishing that he had never been born, as much as I was wishing that the error of his (obviously skewed) teaching hadn’t been been spread so far and so wide. As a non-predestination-ite, I have never studied John Calvin (as I’ve not had an interest in doing so). As a student from kindergarten to 12th grade, I attended a Christian school run primarily by Presbyterians, and had this doctrine shoved down my throat from a young age. Therefore, I thought I had no need to read his words for myself. And I can honestly admit, “My bad”! (And yes, I AM of stable mind, which is probably why I could never believe such balderdash.) Thank you JD for your kind words and your patient responses. Thank you for taking the time to study and share it with us. God Bless!

      • Logic

        You publicly wished someone hadn’t been born? You are in opposition of the bible as a whole. Hate in your heart is murder WOWZER! Yet you say you are Christian? The same mouth you condemned someone with you bless God with? Interesting.

        • musefortune

          You are just like all the rest. Arrogant and condescending.

          • Logic

            Wow another insult. I just keep scrolling insult after insult. Are you JD’s teenage daughter he was talking about lol?

        • musefortune

          Maybe you should worry about the LOG in your pie hole before you nit-pick at the splinter in mine.

          • Logic

            Nice. Very Christ-like. Good example you are setting for everyone.

    • Logic

      There is Limited atonement. Because if you accept universal atonement you have to accept universal salvation. The best from your camp even acknowledge limited atonement just not in the same way as us reformed people They say it is limited to those who decide to believe lol. You probably don’t even know the history of your own camp. Hilarious. Your view is in opposition of the Bible. Puts the work of the Cross in vain since Jesus didn’t save all he intended too and robs God of his omnipotence. Did I hurt you feelings? Do you need a safe space as a grown man like the secular liberals? I notice you marking my stuff as spam lol.

  • JD

    Calvin’s Commentary on 2 Peter 3:9

    “So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have the all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost… But it may be asked, if God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches fort his hand without difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world.”

    It seems that many have taken Calvin’s philosophy further then he ever would have taken it. He clearly says that God’s will to save all mankind is revealed to us in the Gospel but that God’s hidden purpose in not saving the reprobate is not expounded upon here. It seems that Calvin believed without a doubt that it was God’s will to save all men and that his offer of salvation was extended to all men but that in God’s foreknowledge He did not choose all to be saved. Many people have twisted Calvin’s reasoning about mysterious things to a place Calvin himself did not. Calvin seemed to contradict himself at times dealing with such matters that did not make full sense to him.

    • Logic

      Wow Calvin would disagree with you. What a surprise assuming universalism just like you did in Romans 5:18 Which I corrected you on. You left out the very next verse that defined it lmao! lol He said Romans 5:18 is saying every individual When the very next verse defines it and says MANY. What a contradiction you have there JD. jajajaaj

      • musefortune

        That is not the definition of universalism. Universalism is the belief that all are saved.

        • JD

          I would recommend against responding to logic. I made a huge mistake by doing so. He will berate, belittle, condescend and talk in circles. Then when you prove him wrong he will go back and erase his errors and blatantly lie about them. He is just not worth it. He refuses to tell me his age or anything about himself. I am sure he is a kid here just to troll and mock people. One thing is for sure, he is a shining example of the spirit of the reformed movement. That is the only thing he has added to this discussion, a display of “reformed” fruit.

          • musefortune

            I blocked the ” family guy” for the same behavior. That’s the beauty of Disqus, to converse intelligently. If the discussion gets mean, or it becomes obvious that enlightenment, enrichment, or edification is not occurring (or going to occur) you can remove yourself. I haven’t seen such raw hostility in any of the other discussions like I have in this one! Sadly, it’s easy to be nasty when you can hide.

          • JD

            Hey, thanks a million. I did not know I could block him. I just figured out how. THANK YOU! I have such a hard time not answering people and this guy was just a disgusting person rapid firing nonsense, copying and pasting, etc. I felt like I was being vomited on rather than being talked to.
            After blocking him it said I would never see anything he posted again. I felt like I just won the lottery, lol.

          • musefortune

            I think Logic may actually be the “hawk family guy” using a different pseudonym. He had the same vomitus way of responding.

            Logic asked for an example in the Bible where “God make choices in light of what someone might do after they are born.”

            An obvious example is when God decided to destroy every living on the planet – because man had become so evil that God repented that he had made them!

            Reformists confuse God’s attributes. Just because God is omniscient (knows everything that will happen) DOESN’T MEAN HE WILLS IT! Just because He knows ‘what our choices will be’ doesn’t mean ‘He decided them for us’! Did He ‘will’ the people of Noah’s generation to sink into depravity? How ridiculous to think such a thing. HE WAS GRIEVED THAT HE HAD CREATED MAN. Why would he be grieved over His own decision? Drrr!!

            Predestination is like a border. God has chosen that those who are inside the border will be like his Son. Predestination is all about PURPOSE not about PEOPLE. Jesus IS the Elect. If we are in Him, then we are “elect” because we share His divine nature.

            Selah

          • Charity Haigler

            To JD I have been in great confusion and torment like none other after learning TULIP over ten years ago! I am now terrified that I am not elect and no longer have peace about my salvation. PLEASE get in touch with me if you can! I have many questions!! Thank you if you can. 704-294-8365

          • Jeff Hemley

            sorry Charity, I just got to your message. Yes I would be glad to help. I will get in touch.

        • Logic

          Universalism

          Universalism
          is religious, theological, and philosophical concepts with universal
          application or applicability. Universalist doctrines consider all people
          in their formation. In terms of religion, in a broad sense, universalism claims that religion is a universal human quality. This can be contrasted with non-universalist religions.

          Wrong again. No surprise there musefortune. What you are referring to is universal salvation. Which by the way if you accept universal atonement but not universal salvation meaning every one goes to heaven and none will be in hell. Then you put the cross in vain and rob God of his omnipotence. I hope you understand the seriousness of your reasoning.

  • Logic

    I will post this in the main comment section. The topic of for whom did Christ die is very very clear in scripture. Yes people twist and pervert based on false presuppositions and traditions. We can hold to the truth of the Gospel.

    Who does Christ save from their sins?

    Matthew 1:21King James Version (KJV)

    21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    He saves his people. Not every single individual that ever lived or shall live.

    Just to make this very clear. This next verse is very very clear and specific on whom Christ laid his life down for. There is no way around this.

    John 10:15King James Version (KJV)

    15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    Anyone arguing against this is arguing against this very very clear teaching and perverting the Gospel. Be careful with those type of people The Bible is very clear on whom His sheep are. Nowhere does it teach in any verse whatsoever that His sheep are every single person to ever live or have lived. That is a perversion of the text. That is a tradition.

  • Logic

    (Let’s examine the view of those holding of those holding to Arminianism and Wesleyanism) Incase anyone is confused about what people like JD are saying.

    Question: “Is the atonement of Christ unlimited?”

    Answer:
    The Bible has much to say on the atonement of Christ. The question is whether His sacrifice provided limited or unlimited atonement. The word atonement
    means “satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.” The
    doctrine of unlimited atonement states that Christ died for all people,
    whether or not they would ever believe in Him. When applied to Jesus’
    finished work on the cross, atonement concerns the reconciliation of God
    and humankind, as accomplished through the suffering and death of
    Christ. Paul highlights the atoning work of Jesus when he says, “But God
    demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners,
    Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how
    much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while
    we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of
    his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved
    through his life!” (Romans 5:8–10).

    How this reparation of wrongs or reconciliation was accomplished and
    what was involved in the act, has been debated by theologians for
    centuries. There are at least nine different positions on the atonement
    of Christ, ranging anywhere from the atonement being merely a positive
    example for us (the Moral Example theory) to its being a judicial,
    substitutionary act (the Penal Substitution theory).

    But perhaps the most controversial debate concerning the atonement of
    Jesus centers on what is referred to as “limited” or “definite”
    atonement. One theological camp (comprised primarily of those holding to
    Arminianism and Wesleyanism) believes that Christ died on the cross for
    everyone who will ever live. The other theological camp—made up of
    Reformed thinkers, who are often called “Calvinists” after the Reformer
    John Calvin—say that Jesus only died for those whom the Father chose
    from the foundation of the world to be saved. This group of redeemed
    individuals is often referred to as the “elect” or the “chosen” of God.
    Which position is correct? Did Jesus die for everyone in the world or
    only a select group of individuals?

    Is Everyone Going to be Saved?

    In examining this issue, the first question to ask is this: is everyone
    going to be saved through the atoning work of Christ? Those holding to a
    position called universalism
    say “yes.” The universalists argue that, because Christ died for
    everyone and all the sins of humanity were laid on/punished in Christ,
    everyone will spend eternity with God.

    Scripture, however, stands in opposition to such teaching (which can be
    traced back to a teacher named Laelius Socinus in the 16th century). The
    Bible makes it abundantly clear that many people will be lost, with
    just a few verses highlighting this fact following:

    • “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to
    everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2)

    • “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is
    broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through
    it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and
    there are few who find it” (Matthew 7:13–14)

    • “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
    Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform
    many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;
    depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness’” (Matthew 7:22–23)

    • “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46)

    • “They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from
    the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

    • “Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15)

    Since not everyone will be saved, there is one inescapable fact to understand: the atonement of Christ is limited.
    If it isn’t, then universalism must be true, and yet Scripture clearly
    teaches that not everyone is going to be saved. So, unless one is a
    universalist and can defeat the biblical evidence above, then one must
    hold to some form of limited atonement.

    How, Then, Is the Atonement Limited?

    The next important question to examine is this: if the atonement is
    limited (and it is), how is it limited? Jesus’ famous statement in John 3:16
    provides the answer: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one
    and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have
    eternal life.” In this passage, the necessary condition that limits the
    atonement is found: “whosoever believes” (literally in the Greek: “all
    the believing ones”). In other words, the atonement is limited to those
    who believe and only those who believe.

    Who Limits the Atonement?

    Both theological camps previously mentioned will not argue this point –
    the atonement of Christ is limited to those who believe. The
    disagreement occurs over the next question that arises: who limits the
    atonement—God or man? Calvinists/Reformed thinkers maintain that God
    limits the atonement by choosing those whom He will save, and thus God
    only placed on Christ the sins of those He had chosen for salvation. The
    Arminian/Wesleyan position states that God does not limit the
    reparation of Christ, but instead it is humanity that limits the
    atonement by freely choosing to accept or reject the offer that God
    makes to them for salvation.

    A common way for the Arminian/Wesleyan theologians to state their position is that the atonement is unlimited in its invitation but limited in its application.
    God offers the invitation to all; however, only those who respond in
    faith to the gospel message have the work of the atonement applied to
    their spiritual condition.

    To support the position that humanity, and not God, limits the
    atonement, the Arminian/Wesleyan lists a number of Scripture verses,
    including the following:

    • “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2, emphasis added)

    • “The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, ‘Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”” (John 1:29, emphasis added)

    • “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of
    this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh” (John 6:51, emphasis added)

    • “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself” (John 12:32, emphasis added)

    • “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time” (1 Timothy 2:5–6, emphasis added)

    • “But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the
    angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with
    glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone” (Hebrews 2:9, emphasis added)

    • “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will
    also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce
    destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves” (2 Peter 2:1, emphasis added)

    In addition to the biblical references above, the Arminian/Wesleyan
    theologian also provides a number of logical arguments to support their
    case. The most common is that, if God is all-loving, how could Christ
    not die for everyone? Doesn’t God love each and every person (cf. John 3:16)? They see an atonement limited by God as a denial of the omnibenevolence of God.

    Furthermore, the Arminian/Wesleyan believes that an atonement limited by
    God is devastating to the gospel message. How can an evangelist preach
    that “Christ died for you” if Christ did not indeed die for all? There
    is a complete lack of confidence, they say, in making the statement to
    any one person that Christ died for them because the evangelist has no
    real idea (given an atonement limited by God) if that is really the
    case.

    Unlimited Atonement—the Conclusion

    Unless one is a universalist and believes that everyone will ultimately
    be saved, a Christian must hold to some form of a limited atonement. The
    key area of disagreement is over who limits that atonement—God or man?
    Those wishing to hold to a God-limited atonement must answer the
    biblical arguments put forth by those holding to a human-limited
    atonement and also explain how God can be described in Scripture as
    being all-loving and yet not have His Son die for everyone.

  • Logic

    Now let’s look at the non contradictory consistent view of the Gospel. My friends this really isn’t even a debate. For the sake of the TRUTH and anyone confused. Here you go.

    Question: “Limited atonement—is it biblical?”

    Answer:
    “Limited atonement” is a term that is used to summarize what the Bible
    teaches about the purpose for Christ’s death on the cross and what His
    life, death and resurrection accomplished. It is the third letter of the
    acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to explain what are known as the
    five points of Calvinism, also known as the doctrines of grace. The
    doctrine of limited atonement is clearly the most controversial and
    maybe even the most misunderstood of all the doctrines of grace. Because
    the name can confuse people and cause them to have wrong ideas about
    what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “particular
    redemption,” “definite redemption,” “actual atonement,” or “intentional
    atonement.” These terms correctly focus on the fact that the Bible
    reveals Jesus’ death on the cross was intentional and had a definite
    purpose that it succeeded in accomplishing. Yet, like all of the
    doctrines of grace, what is important is not the name that is assigned
    to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the
    Bible teaches about the nature and purpose of Jesus’ sacrificial death
    on the cross.

    The doctrine of limited atonement affirms that the Bible teaches
    Christ’s atoning work on the cross was done with a definite purpose in
    mind—to redeem for God people from every tribe, tongue and nation (Revelation 5:9). Jesus died, according to Matthew 1:21, to “save His people from their sins.” This truth is seen in many passages throughout Scripture. In John 10:15,
    we see that He lays “down His life for the sheep.” Who are the sheep?
    They are the people chosen by God from before the foundation of the
    world (Ephesians 1:4).
    These are the same ones Jesus said were given to Him by the Father in
    order that He would fulfill the Father’s will by losing none of them and
    by raising all of them up in the last day (John 6:37-40).
    The truth that Jesus came for this specific reason is seen in both the
    Old and New Testaments. One of the greatest passages on the atonement in
    the Old Testament is Isaiah 53. In this passage alone, we see that He was “stricken for the transgression of God’s people” (Isaiah 53:8); that He would “justify many” because “He shall bear their iniquities” (Isaiah 53:11); and that He indeed “bore the sin of many” (Isaiah 53:12).
    These verses and many others talk about an atonement that was specific
    in whom it covered (God’s people), was substitutionary in nature (He
    actually bore their sins on the cross), and actually accomplished what
    God intended it to do (justify many). Clearly, here is a picture of an
    intentional, definite atonement. Christ died not simply to make
    justification a possibility but to actually justify those He died for.
    He died to save them, not to make them savable.

    The doctrine of limited atonement also recognizes that the Bible teaches
    Jesus’ death on the cross was a substitutionary atonement for sins.
    Many theologians use the word “vicarious” to describe Christ’s
    atonement. This word means “acting on behalf of” or “representing
    another” and is used to describe “something performed or suffered by one
    person with the results accruing to the benefit or advantage of
    another.” The vicarious atonement of Christ means He was acting as a
    representative for a specific group of people (the elect) who would
    receive a direct benefit (salvation) as the result of His death. This
    concept is clearly seen in 2 Corinthians 5:21:
    “He (God the Father) made Him (Christ) who knew no sin to be sin on our
    behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” If
    Jesus actually stood in my place and bore my sin on the cross as the
    Bible teaches, then I can never be punished for that sin. In order for
    Christ’s atonement to truly be a substitutionary or vicarious atonement,
    then it must actually secure a real salvation for all for whom Christ
    died. If the atonement only makes salvation a possibility, then it
    cannot be a vicarious atonement. If Christ acted as a real and true
    substitute for those for whom He died, then all for whom He died will be
    saved. To say that Christ died a vicarious death in the place of all
    sinners but that not all sinners will be saved is a contradiction.

    Four different words or aspects of the atonement are clearly seen in
    Scripture, and each one helps us understand the nature and extent of the
    atonement. These four words are ransom, reconciliation, propitiation
    and substitute. These four aspects of Christ’s atonement all speak of
    Christ as having actually accomplished something in His death. A study
    of these four terms in their biblical contexts leads to the obvious
    conclusion that one cannot hold to a true universal atonement without
    also requiring universal salvation. If one holds to an unlimited
    atonement while denying universal salvation, one ends up with a
    redemption that leaves men not totally free or actually redeemed, a
    reconciliation that leaves men still estranged from God, a propitiation
    that leaves men still under the wrath of God, and a substitutionary
    death that still makes the sinner himself help pay the debt of his sin.
    All of these aspects of the atoning work of Christ then become nothing
    more than a possibility that relies upon man to make them a reality.

    But that is not what the Bible teaches. It teaches that those who are
    redeemed by Christ are truly free and their debt has been fully paid. It
    teaches that those who are reconciled to God are actually reconciled
    and the wall of separation that existed between them and God has been
    torn down (Colossians 2:14).
    It teaches that Christ’s death on the cross was a sacrifice that fully
    satisfied the wrath of God. It also teaches that Christ was indeed a
    substitute, a kinsmen redeemer, who acted in place of and on behalf of
    His people. When Jesus died on the cross, He said, “It is finished” (John 19:30), and the Greek word translated “finished” is teleō,
    which was used to indicate that a debt had been paid in full. And that
    is exactly what Jesus accomplished on the cross. “When you were dead in
    your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you
    alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the
    written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood
    opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14).

    One common misunderstanding about the doctrine of limited atonement is
    that this view somehow lessens or limits the value of the atonement of
    Christ. Yet exactly the opposite is true. Limited atonement correctly
    recognizes that Christ’s death was of infinite value and lacking in
    nothing. In fact, it is of such value that, had God so willed, Christ’s
    death could have saved every member of the human race. Christ would not
    have had to suffer any more or do anything different to save every human
    who ever lived than He did in securing the salvation of the elect. But
    that was not God’s purpose in sending Christ to the cross. God’s purpose
    in the atonement was that Jesus would secure forever the salvation of
    those the Father had given to Him (Hebrews 7:25). Therefore, while Christ’s atonement was limited in its intent or purpose, it was unlimited in its power.

    Another common misunderstanding about the doctrine of limited atonement
    is that it somehow lessens or diminishes the love of God for humanity.
    Yet, again, exactly the opposite is true. Of all of the doctrines of
    grace, the doctrine of limited atonement, when correctly understood,
    magnifies the love of God; it does not diminish it. Limited atonement
    reinforces the intensive love of God that is revealed in the Bible. God
    loves His people with a love that saves them from their sin, as opposed
    to the love of the unlimited atonement view that sees God’s love as
    being more general in nature. In the unlimited atonement view, He loves
    everyone in general but saves no one in particular and, in fact, leaves
    the matter of their salvation up to them. Which is more loving, a love
    that actually saves people or a love that makes salvation “possible” to
    those who are dead in trespasses and sins and unable to choose God?

    One of the main arguments used against limited atonement is that, if
    Christ did not atone for the sins of everybody in the world and if God
    only intended to save the elect, how do you explain the numerous
    biblical passages that indicate the free offer of the gospel to
    “whosoever will come?” How can God offer salvation to all, including
    those whom He has not elected or foreordained to be saved? How can we
    understand the paradox that occurs because the Bible teaches God intends
    that only the elect will be saved, yet, on the other hand, the Bible
    also unequivocally declares that God freely and sincerely offers
    salvation to everyone who will believe? (Ezekiel 33:11; Isaiah 45:22; 55:1; Matthew 11:28; 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 22:17)
    The solution to this paradox is simply an acknowledgment of all that
    the Bible teaches. 1) The call of the gospel is universal in the sense
    that anybody that hears it and believes in it will be saved. 2) Because
    everyone is dead in trespasses and sin, no one will believe the gospel
    and respond in faith unless God first makes those who are dead in their
    trespasses and sins alive (Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that “whosoever believes” will have eternal life and then explains why some believe and some don’t.

    Another argument against limited atonement points to the passages in the
    Bible that speak of Christ’s atonement in a more general or unlimited
    sense. For example, in 1 John 2:2 John says that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the “whole world.” Likewise, in John 4:42 Jesus is called the “Savior of the world” and in John 1:29 is said to “take way the sin of the world.” Other verses that seem to indicate an unlimited view of the atonement include 2 Corinthians 5:14-15: “He died for all” and 1 Timothy 2:6: “He gave Himself a ransom for all” (although Matthew 20:28 and Mark 10:45
    say Christ came to “give His life a ransom for many”). Those who
    believe in unlimited atonement use such verses to make the point that,
    if Christ died for all and takes away the sins of the world, then His
    atonement cannot be limited to only the elect. However, these verses are
    easily reconciled with the many other verses that support the doctrine
    of limited atonement simply by recognizing that often the Bible uses the
    words “world” or “all” in a limited sense. They do not automatically
    mean “every individual in the entire world.” This is evident when just a
    few verses are considered. In Luke 2:1 it is recorded that a “decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered,” and Luke 2:3
    says, “So all went to be registered everyone to his own city.” But,
    clearly, it is not talking about every individual in the whole world.
    Caesar’s decree did not apply to the Japanese, Chinese or countless
    other people throughout the world.

    Similarly, the Pharisees, being dismayed at Jesus’ growing popularity
    said, “Look how the whole world has gone after Him!” Did every single
    person in the world follow Jesus? Or was the “world” limited to a small
    area of Israel in which Jesus preached?

    So, it should be readily apparent that the phrase “all” or “all the
    world” does not necessarily mean every individual. Understanding that
    basic fact allows one to consider each of these seemingly universal
    passages in their contexts, and, when that is done, it becomes apparent
    that they do not present any conflict with the doctrine of limited
    atonement.

    Yet another argument against limited atonement is that it is a hindrance
    to the preaching of the gospel and to evangelism. Those that use this
    argument will say that if an evangelist cannot say, “Christ died for
    you,” then his effectiveness in presenting the gospel will be limited.
    Or they will say that, if only the elect will be saved, why should the
    gospel be preached at all? Once again, these objections are easily dealt
    with. The gospel is to be preached to everyone because it is the power
    of God to salvation for all who believe (Romans 1:16), and it is the means that God has ordained by which the elect will be saved (Romans 10:14-17).
    Also, the evangelist does not need to tell the unbeliever that “Christ
    died for your sins,” specifically. All he needs to proclaim is that
    Christ died to pay the penalty for sin and provide a way for sinners to
    be reconciled to a holy God. Believe in Him, and you will be saved.

    The doctrines of grace, and specifically the doctrine of limited
    atonement, empower evangelism rather than hinder it. Embracing these
    wonderful biblical truths allows one to boldly and clearly declare the
    good news of the gospel, knowing that the power is not in our
    presentation of it or in the audience’s ability to understand it or
    desire to believe it, but, instead, rests solely upon an all-powerful
    God who has determined to save people from every tribe, tongue and
    nation. Belief in an unlimited atonement, on the other hand, presents
    many logical and biblical problems. First of all, if the atonement was
    truly unlimited, then every person would be saved as all of their sins,
    including the sin of unbelief, would have been paid for by Christ on the
    cross. However, such universalism is clearly unbiblical, as the Bible
    is very clear that not all people are saved or will be saved. Therefore,
    both the Arminian and Calvinist believe in some sort of limited
    atonement. The Arminian limits the effectiveness of the atonement in
    saying Christ died for all people but not all people will be saved. His
    view of the atonement limits its power as it only makes salvation a
    possibility and does not actually save anyone. On the other hand, the
    Calvinist limits the intent of the atonement by stating that Christ’s
    atonement was for specific people (the elect) and that it completely
    secured the salvation of those whom He died for. So, all Christians
    believe in some sort of limited atonement. The question, then, is not
    whether the Bible teaches a limited atonement but how or in what sense
    the atonement is limited. Is the power of the atonement limited in that
    it only makes salvation a possibility, or is its power to save unlimited
    and it actually results in the salvation of those whom God intended to
    save (the elect, His sheep)? Does God do the limiting, or does man? Does
    God’s sovereign grace and purpose dictate the ultimate success or
    failure of the redemptive work of Christ, or does the will of man decide
    whether God’s intentions and purposes will be realized?

    A major problem with unlimited atonement is that is makes redemption
    merely a potential or hypothetical act. An unlimited atonement means
    that Christ’s sacrifice is not effectual until the sinner does his part
    in believing. In this view, the sinner’s faith is the determining factor
    as to whether Christ’s atonement actually accomplishes anything. If the
    doctrine of unlimited atonement is true, then it has Christ dying for
    people the Father knew would not be saved and has Christ paying the
    penalty for the sins of people who would also have to pay the penalty
    for the same sin. In effect, it makes God unjust. Either God punishes
    people for the sins that Christ atoned for, or Christ’s atonement was
    somehow lacking in that it does not sufficiently cover all the sins of
    those for whom He died. The problem with this view becomes even clearer
    when one considers that at the time Christ died on the cross there were
    already sinners that had died who will face the wrath of God in hell for
    their sin. Logically, it makes no sense for God the Father to have
    Christ atone for the sins of people who were already suffering the wrath
    of God for their sin. Where is the justice in punishing Christ for the
    sins of those that were already being punished for their sins? Again,
    this also shows that an unlimited atonement cannot be a vicarious,
    substitutionary atonement.

    Still another problem with an unlimited view of the atonement is that it
    demeans the righteousness of God and destroys the grounds of a
    believer’s assurance. An important aspect of a believer’s assurance is
    that God is righteous and that He will not nor cannot punish sin twice.
    Therefore, the sin that is covered by Christ’s blood can never be
    charged to the sinner’s account. Yet that is what a universal atonement
    leads to. Christ is punished for the sins of those that are not saved,
    and then they are also punished in hell for the same sins.

    Unlimited atonement says that, while Christ does a great deal to bring
    salvation to His people, His death on the cross did not actually secure
    that salvation for anyone. Christ’s death is not sufficient in and of
    itself to save lost people, and, in order for His atoning work to be
    effective, there is a requirement that sinners themselves must meet.
    That requirement is faith. For man to be saved, he must add his faith to
    Christ’s atoning work on the cross. Therefore, the effectiveness of the
    atonement is limited by man’s faith or lack thereof. On the other hand,
    limited atonement believes that Christ’s death and resurrection
    actually secures the salvation of His people. While God does require
    faith of His people, Christ’s death even paid for the sin of our
    unbelief, and, therefore, His death meets all requirements for our
    salvation and provides everything necessary to secure the salvation of
    God’s people including the faith to believe. That is true unconditional
    love, a salvation that is by grace alone in Christ alone. Christ plus
    nothing equals salvation—an atonement so sufficient that it secures
    everything necessary for salvation, including the faith that God gives
    us to believe (Ephesians 2:8).

    Limited atonement, like all of the doctrines of grace, upholds and
    glorifies the unity of the triune Godhead as Father, Son and Holy Spirit
    all work in unison for the purpose of salvation. These doctrines build
    upon one another. The doctrine of total depravity establishes what the
    Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of unregenerate man and
    leaves one with the question “Who can be saved?” The doctrine of
    unconditional election then answers the question by declaring God’s
    sovereign choice in choosing to save people despite their depravity and
    based solely on God’s sovereign choice to redeem for Himself people from
    every tribe, tongue and nation. Next, the doctrine of limited atonement
    explains how God can be perfectly just and yet redeem those sinful
    people and reconcile them to Himself. The only solution to the depravity
    of man was for God to provide a Redeemer who would act as their
    substitute and suffer the wrath of God for their sins. He did this in
    the death of Christ, who, having been crucified, completely and totally
    “canceled out the certificate of debt…having nailed it to the cross” (Colossians 2:13-14).
    That leads to another question: how can a spiritually dead sinner who
    is hostile to God have faith in the atoning work of Christ on the cross?
    That question is answered by the doctrine of grace that is known as
    irresistible grace, the “I” in the acronym TULIP.

  • Logic

    Jesus died for His sheep.

    14. John 10:10-11 The thief comes only
    to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and
    have it to the full. “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

    15. John 10:15 just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep.

    16. Matthew 15:24 He replied, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

    17. Isaiah 53:5-7 But
    he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten
    so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed. All of us,
    like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our
    own. Yet the Lord laid on him the sins of us all. He was oppressed
    and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led like a lamb
    to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did
    not open his mouth.

    His sheep will inherit eternal life.

    18. Matthew 25:32-34 All the nations
    will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a
    shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.

    19. John 10:7 so he explained it to them: “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.

    The parable of the lost sheep.

    20. Luke 15:2-7 And the Pharisees and
    scribes were complaining, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with
    them!” So He told them this parable “What
    man among you, who has 100 sheep and loses one of them, does not leave
    the 99 in the open field and go after the lost one until he finds
    it? When he has found it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders, and
    coming home, he calls his friends and neighbors together, saying to
    them, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found my lost sheep! I tell you, in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who don’t need repentance.

    The Lord will lead His sheep.

    21. Psalm 78:52-53 But he led his own people like a flock of sheep, guiding them safely through the wilderness. He kept them safe so they were not afraid; but the sea covered their enemies.

    22. Psalm 77:20 You led your people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

    Lambs in Heaven.

    23. Isaiah 11:6 A wolf will reside with a lamb, and a leopard will lie down with a young goat; an ox and a young lion will graze together, as a small child leads them along.

    Wolves and sheep.

    24. Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    25. Matthew 10:16 “Look, I am sending you out as sheep among wolves. So be as shrewd as snakes and harmless as doves.

    King James Bible
    ROM 2:29
    But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

  • Logic

    John 10:15King James Version (KJV)
    15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    Sheep hear their shepherd’s voice.

    9. John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me,

    10. John 10:26-28 But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,

    11. John 10:3-4 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him.
    He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. After he has
    gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him
    because they know his voice.

    Simple logic. If Jesus laid down his life for the sheep(interpreted as every single individual.) Then why does every single person not know Jesus? Jesus is very clear in John 10:14.

    Wait if he laid down his life for the sheep.(every single individual) then how are some not he sheep if he laid his life down for (every single person) John 10:26-28?

    His sheep recognize him and come to him. So in John 10:15 John 10:15 (KJV)
    15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    So he laid down his life specifically for the sheep that can’t mean every person because not every person comes to Him. Only his sheep do.

    The bible teaches nothing about God foreknowing who would come to him and those being the sheep. Nothing. It teaches the opposite. If there was ever a perfect opportunity in the Bible to ever teach God does stuff based on the foreknowing of what we would have done it would have been here. It didn’t

    Romans 9:11King James Version (KJV)

    11 (For
    the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,
    that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works,
    but of him that calleth;)

    Has nothing to do with what we might have done or what we choose to do. It teaches and upholds election. It teaches and upholds God calling people.

    The sheep are clearly defined by the Bible not by people.

    Who are the sheep? They are the people chosen by God from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4).
    These are the same ones Jesus said were given to Him by the Father in
    order that He would fulfill the Father’s will by losing none of them and
    by raising all of them up in the last day (John 6:37-40). The truth that Jesus came for this specific reason is seen in both the Old and New Testaments.

  • Doug Brents

    Before I begin, I must make it clear that the Word of God is infallible, does not contradict Itself, and is Its own best commentary. For any question we have about something said in Scripture, we can go elsewhere in Scripture to find the answer.

    That being said, these passages are wonderful, and show us the mighty, awe-inspiring power of God, but to take them out of context and use them to try to say that God made all the choices of who would go to Heaven and who would go to Hell before He created the world is gross negligence of the Word.

    Just looking at the concept logically, there would be no reason for God to send messengers, preachers, angels, or any other thing to teach about Him if there was no choice on our part. Those chosen by God would be born knowing Him, and those not chosen by Him would be lost even if they did believe the preacher. Yet God did send messengers and preachers. Just take Jonah for example. Jonah was commanded to go and preach to the city of Nineveh. God had decided to destroy the Ninevites, but He gave them a chance to repent through the preaching of Jonah. They did repent and so God spared their lives. Does this mean that he spared their souls as well? Not necessarily, but the example of a merciful Lord is carried over into the NT by the life of Jesus. Jesus (like Jonah) came to preach to a condemned people, telling them to repent and obey God. Why send the Apostles to preach if nothing the people to whom they preached did would make any difference in their eternal destiny?

    Further, we are told in many places that anyone who believes will be saved, anyone who repents will have their sins washed away, anyone who confesses the name of Jesus then Jesus will confess them before the Father, etc. What if the person who believes is not one of the “chosen”? What if a person who was chosen doesn’t believe? You see, there are many sides to the idea of predestination, and they don’t always fit nicely into our human understanding.

    One of the best passages to help us understand how free-will and predestination fit together is one you mentioned yourself. Romans 8:28-29. Here Paul tells us that, “… whom He foreknew, He also predestined…” I now I am just taking a small part of the passage, but reading it in context you will see that everything in the passage is based on God’s “foreknowledge”. You see then that because God is outside of “time”, he can see all of time. Consider that you had seen a particular movie 10000 times. Would you imagine that you knew everything about that movie? You could tell what was going to happen, you could quote every line, you could describe the scenery perfectly in every shot before the scene changed, etc. That is how well God knows all of “time” from beginning to end, because he is outside of it. The difference between us with the movie and God with Creation is that He has the power to reach into creation and change things at His will (like He did with the Flood or sending Jesus).

    Now, Scripture is clear that some have been made for the purpose of showing God’s power (like Pharaoh (Rom 9:21)). But that is, I believe, the exception not the rule. I think that because God foreknew that they would not love Him, he used them (by hardening their heart) to show His power through their downfall. The full passage above, Rom 9:9-24, does show that God can and does show mercy where He will, but elsewhere in Scripture we are told the conditions upon which He determines where He will show mercy, and where He will not. So the idea of predestination locking us into an end result no matter what we do on Earth is not a Biblical doctrine.